Comments on: Five things we learned: Notre Dame vs. Pitt

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By: Avon Domer

Avon Domer — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:10:16 +0000

Teo: Welcome to the conversation!
I really do not believe $$$ will be an issue for Notre Dame in hiring a football coach. We’ve already seen where Swarbrick said a buyout for CW will not be an issue at all, and that’s a great sign. I agree with you totally about Charlie giving his all. He truly has done all he could do, and he dearly loves Notre Dame. That’s why I find no joy in this situation at all. When Davie and Ty got the gate, I felt differently. CW is a Domer and that makes this far more disappointing for me. I truly hope that the South Bend faithful treat CW and his family respectfully for as long as they’re there
In regards to our next coach, I agree that a successful COLLEGE coach is the way to go. I hope Mr. Swarbrick has already contacted the first two or three choices on his list, and that they are college coaches. We’ll see!
GO IRISH, BEAT HUSKIES!

By: teo

teo — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:58:43 +0000

This is a pretty interesting discussion, SOT, AD= and Oldalum. I thought I would throw in a comment or two:
1.) These head coaching selections are just too fresh. I am still getting over George O’Leary.
2.) I enjoyed SOT’s comment’s re: SC’s program. No way would SC tolerate a coach that didn’t beat a top ten team in 5 years. No way. I know we are concerned about the Irish program and continuing the legitimacy of the academics and the like, but we had a big-time football program at one point. Sure, we’ve been close in some games, but we need to win games. CW’s had a fairly light schedule, by historical standards, and still hasn’t beaten a top ten program. That LSU game a few years ago was painful. SC has been painful in nearly every year. I’m there. We need a better coach.
3.) I have been a staunch Weis defender, but I think a proven college coach — someone like Kelly or Meyer or Stoops or Kirk whats-his-name at Iowa — would be great.
4.) Finally, this is not a personal thing. Charlie has given Notre Dame everything in these last five years. Yet, he hasn’t cracked the code. He hasn’t figured out how to win big games — and he has lost quite a few games against historically inferior programs. Let’s move ahead and get some great coach to come to South Bend. Certainly, given that NBC televises every home game, the cash should be there.

By: Avon Domer

Avon Domer — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:51:27 +0000

SOT: Loved your last post! Your a class act, and congrats on your law degree!
BTW: I thought Harbaugh going for two against you guys late in last week’s game was beneath contempt. I know you guys will make him pay, and he’s got it coming to him. I’m very disappointed in JH. I thought he was above they type of crap. I’ll always respect Pete (whom I met after the 2005 ND/USC game) for not running it up on the Irish like he could’ve the last two years. Good luck the rest of the season and FIGHT ON!

By: StephenOfTroy

StephenOfTroy — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:04:55 +0000

Avon: Thanks for elucidating what you meant about Prop 48. I understand what your point was now. Reasonable minds can differ, but when you understand each other’s point of view, you can continue to have productive discussions.
So thanks for writing all of that. Except for the part about freshman calculus. Coming into USC, I thought I was well prepared for an advanced calculus class, having taken an AP calc class in high school. Boy was I wrong! There went any dreams of being StephenTheScientist. Hello, English major, hello law school! Wsy to bring my demons back from the dead, buddy…
Oh, and I second your thanks to oldalum for contributing the detailed information. Much appreciated. Fight IRISH! I mean, GO on! I mean, well, you know what I mean.

By: Avon Domer

Avon Domer — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:18:52 +0000

oldalum: Thanks so much for your contributions to our discussion. I’m with you 100% in applauding ND for seeing to it that the athletic department has zero say in the admissions process. that would be the tail wagging the dog, and that should never happen at ND. In regards to whether or not Dan Devine totally understood what ND was about, my hunch is he didn’t “get it” quite like Ara and Lou did, but he certainly adapted to it enough to win a national title and field many good teams at ND. I think his biggest fault in the eyes of the Notre Dame faithful was that he wasn’t Ara, who was wildly successful, handsome, dynamic and was loaded with charisma. Aside from Rockne, Ara was the ideal model for a Notre Dame head coach and was a heckuva tough act to follow. I always thought Devine deserved better than he got from Notre Dame fans and followers. Thanks again for joining the conversation! GO IRISH!

By: oldalum

oldalum — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:50:53 +0000

To interject into the intelligent and meaningful conversation between AvonDomer and StephenofTroy, I am an ND grad and I have a little (very little) insight into the admissions process.
It is my understanding that atheletes are put through the same admissions process as any other student and that the atheletic department has no input into that process.
Of course there are no absolutes about who does or does not get admitted. Last year’s freshman class had SAT scores that averaged over 700 (for each portion of the exam) and half the incoming class were in the top 5% of their high school graduating class. As always the objective of the admissions process is to bring in a class with the best talent, ability, and to make sure the student body reflects diversity in geography, race, nationality, religion, etc. I’m expect that there are target quotas for each of those things but I sure don’t know what they are. One piece of datum that I do know is that there is a target of 25% legacy in each incoming class and that is accuratly reflected each year.
So just as someone who is a fine musician or actor would gain some advantage from that, so would someone who is a fine athelete but to repeat, the atheletic department, the coaches, the AD have no input into the admission process at ND. I know that to be true. And that’s the way it should be.
I am in complete agreement with AvonDomer’s comments about Ara and Lou understanding what ND is all about while Davie and Willingham never did. Weis certainly does. BTW I don’t think that Devine understood either. I have some personal inside information on that topic but it’s irrelevant in this conversation.

By: Avon Domer

Avon Domer — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:50:38 +0000

SOT: I don’t have any problem at all with kids who garner the Prop 48 distinction. I think it’s a great idea for a lot of schools and many young people that have had the precious opportunity to earn a college degree because of Prop 48. It just had no business EVER being in effect at Notre Dame. The reason I say that is ND is a very demanding academic institution that for many years has been ranked between 18th & 20th in the nation by U.S. World & News Report. The requirements for admission are difficult to meet and only about one in five qualified applicants are accepted to each freshman class. The competition to be admitted to ND is fierce, and in recent years only Harvard, Yale and Princeton have graduated a higher percentage of their student population. While I’m told the requirements are relaxed to a certain extent in regards to the football team, I have no idea by how much. Regardless, the university admissions staff has to be convinced that student-athletes can and will graduate or they will not be allowed in. I don’t know if it’s still this way or not, but I heard back in the day that if the admissions office had any reason at all to beleive that an athlete cannot pass freshman calculus, they have no chance of getting in. Believe me, academic demands have cost ND a whole lot of footbal talent though the years, and this is why the Board and many others in the Notre Dame Family were outraged that Prop 48 kids were admitted to play football. That absolutely stepped over the boundaries of what is acceptable at Notre Dame and hopefully it won’t happen again.
I know this sounds arrogant to some people and I apologize for that, but that’s the way it is at ND, and my hunch is it’s the same way at other institutuions of higher learning. Oh, and for the record, I am not a Notre Dame graduate. I am half-Irish, 100% Catholic and was raised 40 miles from ND. I am a proud graduate of a public university in Indiana, and I have revered and been in love with the University of Notre Dame for more than 45 years. The only way possible my loyalty could be lessened is if Notre Dame ever went away from what made it great. It is my fervent wish that ND retains its high academic principles, graduates everybody and always gives those of us who love it something to look up to and admire. As long as Notre Dame remains true to itself it doesn’t matter a damn whether the football team wins its next 1,000 games or loses them all, and I totally understand how people would scoff at that, but for many of us it’s true. Holtz once said that the Notre Dame spirit is something that if you feel it you can’t explain it, and if you don’t feel it you could be explained to you. I and millions across the world, many of whom have never once set foot on campus, know what he’s talking about and we wouldn’t trade how we feel about ND for anything!
In regards as to who our next coach will be, I really have no idea what’ll happen. My hope is for a successful COLLEGE coach who understands and appreciates the uniqueness of Notre Dame. You have to “get” Notre Dame to properly sell it to recruits, and Davie and Willingham never came close to mastering that. Holtz didn’t go to school at ND, and neither did Parseghian or Devine, but they understood what the school is about and what it represents to people all over the world. I hope our next coach meets that most basic of requirements to take on this enormous responsibility.
All the best, and FIGHT ON!

By: StephenofTroy

StephenofTroy — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:49:39 +0000

Oh, and Avon: Don’t waste your time looking for an etched-in-stone pronouncement on campus re: 5 year plan. I never said any such thing. The precedent of allowing a coach to finish his initial contract is an action, not a proclamation. Actions speak louder than words. And it IS a precedent. The chattering class is entitled to note the conspicuous variance from it and, well, chatter about it. Have fun on Saturday. I think the Irish will beat UConn. I say that in part because I don’t respect UConn’s talent, but mostly because I don’t think the kids want Weis to go out losing in his final home game, and the seniors don’t want to go out like the last senior class and lose at home, either. Good luck!

By: StephenOfTroy

StephenOfTroy — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:42:10 +0000

Avon: First off, thanks the time and effort you spent writing all that. I enjoyed reading it.
I have no trouble believing you’d rather have a mediocre but “real” (whatever that means to you) ND than an inauthentic ND with a better football record.
I’m curious what you find so off-putting about Prop 48. You’re obviously entitled to your own opinion, as is everyone. I just don’t see what’s so atrocious. Maybe I don’t understand it as well as you do. But I’ve always thought college is a huge difference-maker in young people’s lives, and those without access to a good college education are handicapped for life. A great college (doesn’t have to be ND or USC, just any school in the top, say, 50) that reaches down into obscurity to help someone who otherwise wouldn’t get there is doing a valuable service, in my view. Particularly where, as with Zorich, the kid who gets the helping hand ends up exceeding everyone’s expectations. It’s like taking any other risk; some will pan out and some don’t. Some might argue that giving scholarships to players who don’t play is a waste. But you don’t know ahead of time who will shine and who will crack under pressure.
Anyway, I’d be interested to read your views re the abomination inherent in Prop 48.
And as to Ty being aloof on the sidelines, I cannot speculate as to what that meant. Assuming arguendo that you’re correct and he wasn’t talking with the other coaches, I would give any head coach on the sidelines the benefit of the doubt. I assume he’s thinking deeply about the game. He’s got the headset on. You don’t want to micromanage. That said, I think there are certainly times when the head coach needs to get into a player’s face and immediately correct a mistake or boost a downcast player’s spirits to “keep his head in the game.” Holtz yanking a lineman’s face mask while lecturing him comes affectionately to mind.
I didn’t know about him golfing during recruiting time. I defer on this point and several others to your greater knowledge. All I know is that it doesn’t look to me like ND kept up its end of the bargain. He may have wanted a “review” but that means salary and benefits, conditions of employment, etc., not firing! Particularly when you let the next guy get a big contract extension and keep him more than 3 years without having any better results. Still, you know what I think and I know what you think on this point by now.
What do you think the coaches most often mentioned about being next for the Irish job are thinking now? My sense is that several of them are looking at what a crapshoot it would be to come to ND, and they don’t want to risk the security they have established at their present position by coming to ND and getting fired because of unrealistic expectations. Gruden re-upped with ESPN. I think Harbaugh will do the same at Stanford. Not as sure about Kelly but I think he’ll do the same at Cincy. Your thoughts?
GO IRISH and Fight on, Trojans! (I know it makes some people’s heads explode when I write that…)

By: Avon Domer

Avon Domer — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:17:54 +0000

SOT: The University of Notre Dame is far from being a perfect institution, and anyone who is close to it will tell you that. What the University of Notre Dame is all about is striving for excellence in everything it does, and sometimes it falls short of its goals and expectations, just like all man-made institutions. Football is a very important part of what has made Notre Dame what it is, and through the years the school has taken turns emphasizing and deemphazing the importance of the sport on campus. For instance, it’s commonly believed that Frank Leahy resigned due to health reasons as head coach after his wildly successful stint in that position. I’ve heard from numerous sources that he was actually fired because the football program was overshadowing everything else about the university. Here’s another example of Notre Dame going back and forth on the importance of football: Following the disastrous reign of Gerry Faust, Lou Holtz was brought in to lead the program, and lo and behold two Prop 48 kids that were instrumental to ND winning the 1988 national title were admitted. Those two young men were Tony Rice and Chris Zorich. They both graduated from ND and Zorich returned to get his law degree from ND after a stint with the Bears. Unfortunately for Holtz, members of the Board and a group of alums found out about Prop 48s getting in and the practice rightfully disappeared in a hurry, and that made me very happy. I didn’t fall in love with the University solely because it used to win in football. For me football brought me there, but the far bigger attraction has always been my being a Catholic, the beauty of the campus and the university’s committment to be great at everything it does, and that includes DEMANDING that its student-athletes work hard to earn a precious Notre Dame degree and behave like responsible adults. When I heard about the Prop 48 thing I thought my head would explode. Thank God it was done away with in a big hurry. I know you’ll never believe this, but I would forever rather be mediocre at football as the real Notre Dame than be great on the gridiron with lower standards.
Notre Dame wants to win at football and it makes no apologies for that. In regards to the five-year plan for coaches, show me where Notre Dame ever bragged about that or etched it in stone somewhere on campus. I’ve been there hundereds of times, and I’ll be there Saturday. I’ll look for it and will let you know if I find it. Notre Dame honored its contract with Willingham by paying him off after his third year review that HE wanted in his contract. Notre Dame gave him a wonderful opportunity and owes him absolutely nothing.
ND treated Willingham the way he should’ve been treated. Like I said earlier, he spent a lot of time during recruiting periods on the beautiful Notre Dame Warren Golf Course, and along with that, I never saw him coach anybody. Whenever there were time outs you would see a gaggle of ND assistant coaches talking with the quarterback or middle linebacker while TW was always 30 yards away with his arms folded staring at something. Seriously, doesn’t Notre Dame, or any school for that matter, deserve a better effort than that? TW is a gentlemen and a fine man, however he is incompetent as a head football coach. Oh yeah…and ND paid him enough $$$ in his buyout that your family and mine could retire for the next five generations. If that’s getting treated badly, sign me up!
I’ll be there Saturday for the UCONN game with a very heavy heart. CW is on the verge of being fired and it’ll be the right thing to do and that saddens me greatly. Weis has given his all in his effort to return ND to prominence and it hasn’t worked out. He is a Notre Dame grad who loves the university as much as anybody, and I’ve learned through friends I have who know him well that he is beyond devastated. I would dearly love to see the team rally behind him and give him a win in his last game at Notre Dame Stadium. My fear is that the team’s psyche is shot and it won’t happen. The only thing I know for sure is it will make for an interesting and dramatic Saturday afternoon under the Golden Dome.
Peace!