It'd be so much easier if things were cut and dry. But once again, Notre Dame loses, and it doesn't even begin to tell the story. For much of the game, the Irish were shut down offensively, failing to get into the red zone for the entire first half while the defense held it's own against the potent combination of Pitt's running and passing attack. Yet as the script always does, the Irish mounted a furious comeback, thanks to the electric play of Golden Tate, and after Tate's punt return for a touchdown, the Irish found themselves attempting a two-point conversion to make it a field goal game. Yet Jimmy Clausen's shovel pass dropped between backup tight end Mike Ragone's hands, and the Irish never got any closer.
Still that doesn't tell us everything, as the Irish had another chance to march down the field and win the game. With Pitt down two key cornerbacks, the Irish had a chance to mount another rally until a chop-block penalty was called on Dan Wenger, dropping the Irish back from a 2nd and 1 at the 42 to a 2nd and 16 back at the 27. On the very next play, Clausen was flushed from the pocket, and hit just as he threw the ball, the ball squirting forward and putting the Irish in a 4th and ballgame situation. The Irish called timeout to get a play set, the Big East replay officials called downstairs to take one more look at the play.
We'll never know what would've happened on that 4th and long for the Irish. The Pitt pass rush ate Paul Duncan and the Irish offensive line alive all evening and maybe the Irish wouldn't have had a chance to throw down field. But Golden Tate and Michael Floyd were going against a beat-up secondary, and at the very least the Irish -- and their embattled head coach -- deserved a shot. Yet a replay official who couldn't overturn a controversial completion to Jonathan Baldwin a few series earlier could somehow determine that Clausen's pass was a fumble and the inadvertent whistles once again didn't kill a play before Pitt recovered?
Sigh.
In the end, there will be more questions than answers. If this is it for Charlie Weis, he certainly deserved better. Better than being on the short end of nearly every replay review short of one against Washington, and better than knuckle-headed mistakes his players made while they played frantically for their coach.
Here's five things we learned tonight:
1) Pitt's pass rush killed the Irish.
If Notre Dame fans hear the name Greg Romeus again they might get sick to their stomachs. Romeus, Gus Mustakas, Jabaal Sheard and Mick Williams controlled the line of scrimmage when the Irish tried to throw the ball, taking away the deep threat and letting Pitt's defensive backs jump the short throws. Even when Weis tried to slow down the pressure with screen passes, the Pittsburgh defense was game, snuffing out every attempt for a loss of yardage with great pursuit by the linebacking corps. Ditto the Wildcat formation. The Notre Dame running game was surprisingly effective with Armando Allen gaining 5.5 yards per carry, yet to get back into the game, the Irish needed to lean on their passing attack, and without any time to throw the ball, Jimmy Clausen just couldn't get it done.
2) Notre Dame's kicking game killed them
Just when the Irish finally get a big play out of their special teams, they have a game like Pittsburgh, where kicking and punting factored largely in the outcome. I'm sure Eric Maust is a good person, but he was terrible punter on Saturday night, kicking 5 times for an average of 24.8 yards. When he wasn't punting short ineffective kicks, he was dropping the snap and shanking punts out of bounds when he should've been pinning the Pitt offense deep. Much of the first half the Irish offense was shut down because they had to start deep in their own territory. On the flip side, David Ruffer filled in for freshman kicker Nick Tausch, who was a surprising scratch from the lineup, and while Ruffer made his only field goal and did well on kickoffs, his low extra point attempt was blocked, putting the Irish in another hole. (To be fair, Trevor Robinson got run over...) Either way, the Irish have now committed two scholarships to punters, two to kickers, and even another one to a long snapper, all to try and get the Irish special teams to average. Even with Tate's punt return for a touchdown, it was clear that Notre Dame could never flip the field on a change of possession, and Maust's short punts put Notre Dame at a real disadvantage.
3) Irish defense just can't force turnovers.
During this two game losing streak, the Notre Dame defense has failed to force a single turnover. In their four losses, the Irish have only managed two turnovers -- an interception of two freshman quarterbacks, Tate Forcier and Matt Barkley, who both seemed to manage pretty decent games despite the gaffs. It's become so evident that the Irish defense is deficient that the offense knows it, and it's permeating the entire gameplan for Notre Dame. While Weis can say that he likes his offensive's chances with the defense holding a team in the 20s, what he isn't mentioning is that most teams depend on a big play or two from the defense to help score some points. The lack of pass rush out of the front four against Pitt forced the Irish to gamble with blitzing linebackers and once again Jon Tenuta's scheme rolled snake eyes, giving up big plays to Jonathan Baldwin and Dion Lewis that ultimately sank the Irish's chances.
4) Way too many games are turning subjective.
Remember when people used to say, "Let's settle it on the field?" Not anymore. Too often the replay booth is getting in the way of the ebb and flow of the game, stopping to look at a trivial replay to confirm a play when a referee was within feet of the action. I'm all for getting things right, but when you've got the game starting and stopping to review plays that aren't even close, the replay officials are getting in the way of a the football game. Even more baffling is the decision to overturn a call. Whether it's Friday night's game in Cincinnati or the final offensive play for the Irish, there is just way too much subjectivity getting in the way of football. When you slow a person's movements down to a single frame per second it warps your sense of what really happened.
Jimmy Clausen's fumble/incompletion at the end of the game is a proof that replay officials have forgotten what the word inconclusive means. There's no way you can overturn Clausen's fumble if you understand what indisputable means. And if Clausen's fumble is the line of demarcation, then Jonathan Baldwin's controversial catch with under seven minutes left in the game should've been brought back. The NCAA has to do something this offseason about it's replay system, and putting the onus on coaches to call challenges instead of allowing partisan officiating crews to dictate what play gets looked at is the best solution. Football may be a game of inches and the officials may be doing the best job they can, but it's getting to the point where even logical fans start questioning the integrity of officiating crews.
5) Notre Dame's nightmare scenario is upon us.
Once again, Charlie Weis and the Irish are in a position where they've given up their ability to control their own destiny. A win at Pitt would've silenced a very vocal minority that is hellbent on change. Now there's another week of questions, another week of speculation, and another week where people will look for word out of Notre Dame's athletic department regarding the head coaching situation. As I said earlier, it's too bad that things aren't black and white, because it'd be a much easier decision. There's no doubt in my mind that the whispers from last week weighed on the Irish players and there's no doubt in my mind that it'll effect them again as they prepare for UConn. Now it's up to Weis to prepare his team for another tough game, or for Jack Swarbrick to tell him he doesn't need to do it anymore.
Keith,
I really like your posts and appreciate your attempt at a fair minded analysis of coach Weis. But it's not a vocal minority that thinks it's time for him to move on--it's a vast majority. Believe me, I've been arguing for him to be given time to continue rebuilding this program since the fire Weis crowd got started in 07, but since the Navy game, there is almost no one still defending him. 1-10 against ranked teams says it all. I really like CW and want desperately for him to succeed, but it just isn't going to happen. It's time for a new coach.
All very good comments. This was the first time I ever felt like a replay was called to ensure a victory for the home team. Pitt in a BCS game is big money for the Big East. Pitt at 9-1 against Cinci is big ratings for the Big East. That overturn was horrible. I think the Big East commissioner was in the booth helping out.
But ND should have never been in that situation. The D is plain bad and the O-line is horribly coached, and the play calling was predictable as usual. I don't know where they go from here. I see a sloppy win next week and a loss at Stanford. 7-5 on the year against a very easy schedule.
Stanford 55 - SC 21! That was the highlight of my weekend. But my gosh Golden Tate is one hell of a player.
Oh boy! Oh boy! this means we get to hear buckets of apocalyptic denunciations from robertg...bring it on robertg! the only thing you haven't blamed yet is the vast right wing conspiracy.
Time for Charlie Weis to go. Enough is enough.
You've GOT to be kidding. Keith Arnold, would you and the other crybabies from ND like some cheese to go with your whine? Crying about the official's CORRECT call regarding Clausen's fumble? When EVERY game in South Bend has the taint of the "luck of the Irish?" End of the game vs. SC. No, wait, let's put a second back on the clock. Washington's RB scores an obvious TD. No, wait, let's say he didn't and put the ball at the one-and-a-half.
Get over yourselves. You can't beat any team with a winning record. You're 0-8 against my Trojans, even when you grow the grass long to try to take away our superior speed. You can't beat Navy AT HOME. It has nothing to do with Ty Willingham. Weis has his own recruits. He cannot coach them, and they cannot play. ND has its own TV station and endless amounts of money to hire and recruit talent. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
My question is, why in the world hasn't Weis been fired? The black guy had the same winning percentage. But now, all of a sudden, it's about something more than wins and losses? Why? Gee.... I wonder.
StephenOfTroy: you're in the wrong place to be bashing ND homie, you're just sore because usc got a new butthole stomped in em today. Go Away.
Now, I've had many a bad things to say about CW and this years teams performance, but damnit, I'm done talkin about the bad stuff....for now.
I want to talk about one thing and one thing only. Golden Tate. Man, i can't say enough about this guy, floyd comes out and G.T. gets double, triple teamed, and what does he do? he scores TD's. Floyd comes back, and what does G.T. do? he scores even more TD's. I don't care what the results are at the end of this season, because honestly the results won't go in his favor based on the teams record, but put G.T. next to anyone of the top finalists for the hiesman, and he's a better player. Period. Golden Tate is by far, the best college football player in the country, and I for one am damn proud to say he's a ND guy.
So.....moral of the story here guys, look at the bright side
Stephen of Troy is an idiot for even considering the possibility that firing Tyrone Willingham had anything to do with race. I'm so incredibly sick of ignorant fans of different schools across the country who believe that just because guys like John Saunders thought it was racist to fire Willingham mean that its true. Honestly, get a clue. Ty Willingham got fired, justifiably so, because he was lazy. He relied on decent recruiting by Davie in his first year to have a solid first season, which he turned into one decent recruiting class. Charlie Weis got a pass in 2007 and 2008 because of Ty Willingham's unbelievable incompetency. Let's not forget that he went 0-12 at Washington, and had Ty not relied on ND's brand name to get one good recruiting class, the Irish might have been in Washington's shoes. Charlie got his chance because he does work incredibly hard. Obviously, it does not appear to be working out, but he solidified the talent base at ND for the next coach to come in and succeed. People think Charlie succeeded with Ty's recruits? Well Ty was 5-7, and 6-6 with those same players-and he had leftovers from Davie like Julius Jones and Vontez Duff. Charlie deserved a chance to see if he could groom his own highly rated players that many of whom he outworked Pete Jackass for, and it just didn't work out. But let's stop the racism stuff with Ty Willingham. It's embarrassing for a fan of a "smart person" school like USC to even think racism played a factor.
Brandon: "homie?" Seriously? You're a joke. I'm not upset about losing to Stanford. They're a great team. They stomped Oregon too. We have: a new offensive coordinator, a new defensive coordinator, a new (freshman) QB, 8 new players on defense, AND injuries to: star TB, star WR, star TE, and 3 LB's. You can't expect to win them all. Except you can still expect to beat ND. 8-0 in the last 8 years, right? So shut up, "homie."
Nick: If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's Charlie Weis, or as another person on this blog called him, Cap'n Puddingpants. Oh no wait I meant to say it's racism. You tell me why Weis is still there while Ty got the axe. If you think Ty was lazy (gee, there's a stereotype about blacks), what did Weis do that you think counts as working incredibly hard? No change whatsoever to his game plan vs. Navy. It showed. Have you guys beaten a team with a winning record? Speaking of winning records, Charlie would KILL to have "Pete Jackass's" record. Way to show your legendary class. Idiot.
Oh, and Brandon: If Golden Tate was at USC, you wouldn't hear anything about him, unless Damian Williams was injured. You guys act like Tate is the Second Coming, when you're not acting like Clausen is. Tate's good, no doubt. But if he was all that you say, how come your coach hasn't found a scheme that will exploit his talent and lead to WINS against decent (not even GOOD) teams? I know your fingers are in your ears. Won't work. I'm typing. Not talking.
Okay so now I'm a racist. Well I played major division one basketball with plenty of African Americans, none of whom were lazy, so thanks for calling me a racist. I also had a high school teammate play for Pete, and I used to respect everything about them, but since most SC fans are like you, I can't believe I ever fell into that trap.
I agree that it is not a "very vocal minority". I graduated in 1989, after we won the national championship in the autumn, and all the alumni I know want Charlie to go. Some of us even cheered for Pitt last night, so that the picture wouldn't be hazy at the end of the season. Can we please find a college coach whose a winner? In fact, we need to be a bit humble here and seek a turn around specialist will actually give ND a shot after we chose 3 loser coaches after Lou's departure.
Nick, where did you go to school? Did they teach reading comprehension? Were you asleep that day? I didn't call you racist. I said laziness is a stereotype about blacks. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. By the way, the "some of my best friends are you people" thing? Racist. LOL!
I came back to say one thing. I don't hate ND, even though I'm a double Trojan. I respected the old ND. Ever since I was a kid, my two favorite programs have been USC and Notre Dame. I remember a Sports Illustrated cover that showed Rodney Peete getting gang-tackled by the Irish. ND has a storied history and has a lot to be proud of. My best friend from college went to law school at ND, and I made the trip to South Bend to watch the USC game a couple of times. I loved the way the stadium rocked as the crowd chanted "We...are...N...D" And I still wear my ND sweatshirt that my college best friend bought me. I even wore it to the Coliseum, as a gesture of friendship (and a female Trojan fan threatened my life, much to my delight).
Point being: rivalries are only rivalries if either teams is capable of winning. Both teams should be competing, and the outcome should not be assured before the game starts. ND needs to improve, dramatically. It used to be about something more than making excuses for failing to compete. Losing twice at home to Navy? Failing to beat a team with a winning record? Keep making excuses. The rest of us will keep calling for your head coach's head. For the sake of ND and its deserving fans, if not for the sake of re-igniting what used to be the premiere rivalry in college football.
Okay, that's it. Enjoy your could'a-should'a-would'a-and-don't-we-all-think-Golden-Tate-walks-on-water party.
Alright...2 huge problems that I need some explanations on!!! 1) How can a call ruled an incomplete pass (meaning that when the refs blew the play dead, no one had control of the ball, BECAUSE IT WAS AN INCOMPLETE PASS) then be overruled as a fumble and then given to the other team (although the ball was recovered AFTER the play was WHISTLED dead) ANYONE, PLEASE?!?!?! 2) If you taped the ND-Pitt game, go to about 5min remaining when the Pitt RB ran right and OBVIOUSLY straight out-of-bounds resulting in a 3rd and 1yd to go play. The RB ran directly out-of-bounds (not the "forward progress was stopped in bounds" crap) and the game clock continued to run!! Can anyone explain? And by explain I mean an actual explanation.....not your immature BS about how ND sucks and are always lucky and don't deserve to win! And I also understand that Charlie W. is the furtherest thing from an "offensive genius" that the College world has ever seen, so please save your breath and save us your retarded, "I hate Charlie" speech and just answer the questions?!?! Thanks!
Keith,
This is a thoughtful, balanced, and thanks for a well written column. There's nothing black and white here, all pretty murky. One thing though is clear, these games have been exciting down to the wire--or the replay booth takes control of the outcome--whichever comes first.
I shudder to think what the boys at ND Nation are writing now though.It's a crematorium over there.
GraceHall89,
I would never, ever root against ND.
I was a freshman when ND won the national title in 1988. I've suffered like you, but I have never, ever, ever rooted against the Irish.
How could you put your feelings about a coach ahead of your feelings for the team?
I know you are not alone, but to turn your back on ND because of a coach?!?
I'm just aghast.
keith,
1. nightmare is the correct word for the notre dame/pitt game.
2. however, the nightmare was not for vcharlie weis or his staff of for any of notre dame's fine student athletes.
3. the nightmare, which we will happily deliver via the civil courts for every big east game and tech review official who orchestrated this atrocity on national tv and for their superiors at the big east conference.
4. per the box score only as a start, pitt played the entire game with the officials calling only one 5 yard penalty against pitt, but created many phantom penalties against notre dame called against notre dame at crucial times to stall notre dame td drives and to put pitt in great field positions to score.
5. the big east officials were justifiable terrified that notre dame would actually score on notre dame's last drive and win.
6. therefore, the big east tech reviewers stepped and created a phantom fumble to give pitt the ball.
7. we have a bridge for sale in brrooklyn for anyone stupid enough to but the paper outcome of the notre dame/pitt game as legimate.
8. our process servers will be delivering civil rico lawsuits to the homes of every big east game and tech review official invollved in officiating the notre dame/pitt games this week, along with civil rico lawsuits to their superiors and protectors at the big east conference.
9. unless charlie and his staff get disgusted and quit to proect their families from all of this fraudlent vitriol, charlie and his staff will be at notre dame for many years to come.
10. we fixed the pac 1o officiating, with a lot of help from new and honest pac 10 commissioner larry scott, who becames so outraged when he saw the game films of wins over usc by notre dame and oregon state converted into usc wins by dishonest pac 10 officials, that scott took personal control over pac 10 football officiating from long time pac 10 officiating con artists jim muldoon and dave cutaia.
11. with honest pac 10 officials, stanford blew out usc in the mausoleum 55-21 and forfet winns for notre dame and oregon state are coming very soon, in addition to forfeit wins for notre dame over michigan,navy, and pitt.
12. anyone can point out things that notre dame players could have done better in every game. to understand how the dishonest officiating game works, people have to read and understand the ncaa rulebook, avaliable online and purchase the equipment and hire the real experts to break down the game films.
13. however, the only relevant point is that this notre dame team played well enough to win, but for the grossly dishonest.
officiating.
14. the great news is that these hopelessly corrupt officiating, rules enforcement, and ranking systems vwill no be back next season and that every person and entity involved in crooked college sports enterprises will be gone well before next season begins.
GO IRISH!!
No point in going back and forth with you, because you're one of "those" guys. The kind of guy who has nothing better to do with your time then kick off some ridiculous smack talking on the internet. Knowing good and well in real life, face to face, you wouldn't have a damn thing to say. And why do you do it? because you have NO life...so instead of replying back to my comment here with some more of your pathetic rambling, why don't you go find a USC site to praise your team, instead of staying here and bashing ours.
Like I originally said. you're in the wrong place homie. Go away.
repeat after me:
It's only a game
It's only a game
It's only a game
It's only a game
ad infinitum, ad nauseam
Below is a reality check translation on the five things we learned about the Irish.
1) Pitt's pass rush killed the Irish.
Reality translation: The OL can't pass block. Too slow to block a quick and big DL. Bad blocking schemes in passing scenarios equal poor coaching.
2) Notre Dame's kicking game killed them.
Reality translation: Kicking is fundamental to football. Surely, getting good kickers has to be on someone's recuiting list.
3) Irish defense just can't force turnovers.
Reality translation: Poor defensive schemes. Good DCs use schemes that put their impact players in position to make plays. Of course, the DC has to be willing to take chances. Again, poor coaching explains the lack of the defense forcing turnovers.
4) Way too many games are turning subjective.
Reality translation: The replay officals live in a different reality. This is not the fault of the Irish, it is the fault of the instant replay system. It is the same in the NFL and all other sports that use the instant replay. All the fans and writers wanted the instant replay, so bad calls would be overturned. The subjective comes with it. The lesson for ND fans is be carefully want you wish for (i.e., goodbye Charlie).
5) Notre Dame's nightmare scenario is upon us.
Reality translation: The nightmare started when Charlie Weis was hired not last night. Like cream rises to the top, lead sinks to the bottom. Good coaching doesn't need defending and will show through. Bad coaching doesn't get better when given more time.
For Notre Dame it is time to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation. The choice is to live in an alternative reality, like the replay officals and pretend all in well.
Stephen - Great Comments! Here is the deal, until ND opens up their program to good minority candidates as well as others "the curse of Tyrone Willingham" will continue.
All the crap on here about racism is just personal opinions of folks who need to vent their angers and frustrations. Stick to football and the facts...ND has really sucked for quite a while,say back to when Holtz left. Those Brady Quinn teams were no prize as LSU showed them to be lacking in all phases of the game. Charlie Weis and his coaches are 2nd tier at their jobs. ND will never return to glory with this staff. The AD needs to show some leadership and clean house and what has proven so difficult, find a competent first class coaching staff.Until then ND will continue to be a mediocre team and an embarrasement to those of us who remember the days of Ara and Lou and don't forget Dan Devine.
Keith:
Great article! If you want to be a great team, you have to be good enough to overcome mistakes. Every play is designed offensively to score a TD. And every play defensively is designed to stop the offense for no gain. The problem with ND right now is that they have to play perfect to win against quality opponents. They just aren't good enough to win without mistakes.
They don't know how to win and why would they look how long it has been since they have had sustained success.
1. the 1st step for any poster who expects to be taken seriously is to read and understand the current ncca college officiating rules which are available online.
2. the second step is to look at the flow and timing of penalties called and penalties not called against both teams, including the phantom fumble which was called against nd by the big east tech review crew on notre dame's last offensive series, but was ruled an intentional grounding when a real fumble was committed by usc's barkley recovered by notre dame and then reversed to be an intentional grounding which permitted the pac 10 officiating crew to give back to usc its 3rd fumble of the day recovered by notre dame in the notre dame/usc game.
3. of course, these acts of dishonest officiating by that pac 10 crew occurred before new and honest pac 10 commissioner larry scott took personal control of the pac 10 officials and straighted out that mess, with forfeits by usc to notre dame and oregon state to follow.
4. we realize that not everyone can purchase the equipment that we have purchased and hire the experts that we have to break down game films with the focus on officiating.
5. we will be posting the dates and times and locations of depositions and trials.
6. anyone who wants to attend will be very welcome.
7. when we started out on this project, we did not know very much about college football officiating or about the business of college football.
8. we have taken the time to learn, a luxury which is available to us because the us district judge in the enron civil rico cases awarded us over $690 million, lees than 11% of the cash that we recovered for the victims of that fraud.
9. once any real experts have broken down the game films of every notre dame 2009 football game, it is quite obvious that this notre dame team really is undefeated for 2009 season so far and that florida and alabama really have 2 losses each.
10. when paper losses occur, there is a natural tendency even for people who really love notre dame to blanme the coaches and the student athletes.
11. after all, no team has ever played a perfect game.
12. however, the only relevant question is whether or not this notre dame played well enough to win every 2009 game and the answer is that they did.
13. anyone who wants to root against notre dame should go out and do so.
14. people who want to complain about charlie and his staff and notre dame's student athletes would be happier rooting for another team.
15. we are expecting from the notre dame administration an expression of full support for charlie and his staff and for notre dame's student athletes and a demand that the current corrupt officiating, rules enforcement, and rankings systems be replaced with honest high tech systems fully transparent to the public.
GO IRISH!!!
Good4u, are you willfully ignorant or just stupid? Maybe you didnt notice that Willingham was fired from Washington for being grossly incompetent? Or are they racists too, in your book? Looks to me like you live in a race oriented victimization world.
Last thing ND needs is an affirmative action coaching selection.
Once again we learn that Sam Young is a big pylon. Once again we learn Charlie and his offense is a dream while we live the nightmare. Honestly, I am almost ashamed we have to dream of what could be based on referee calls every game (i.e. the Bush Push)...back to the facts: We can't beat rivals, we can't beat ranked teams and we can't beat anyone else (sure I would love to play Baylor or Toledo, but I would be scared of the result)into the ground with a huge senior O-Line, great recievers, a great tight end (yes I know Kyle was out....last night) and a strong running game. The defense sucks normally, but actually kept them in range last night before they imploded...if the offense had made some plays they would have been well ahead at the half. The offense didn't even engineer the comeback...they were lucky low percentage plays; not engineered. Better lucky than good...sure...but not every play.
I am rambling, sorry everyone, but
since Lou
who?
Poo!
We need someone new :(
Perhaps back to Lou
Fulmer or Gruden how about you?!
1. Golden Tate, Wow! (Steve of T, Damian who?). 2. O-line, kickers, entire defense, it can't all be coaching, can it? Most of these players were highly recruited. Eric Maust, was on Ray Guy watch list to start season, punting was supposed to be solid. 3. Maybe ND being an independent, using different conference refs every week, makes us more likely to have issues with refs. ND certainly isn't only school voicing complaints this yr.( SEC ) 4. The axe will not fall, til after the UCONN game at the earliest. Hopefully the powers at be have already identified a list of candidates. Whomever it is, the announcement will depend on that persons availability.(Cincy vs. Pitt, Dec.5) The earlier the better, to put staff together and recruiting. Minority opinion?, I think not. 5.If you look back at season, this could be much worse. The BC game in particular, was won due to poor play of Eagles(5 turnovers). Thank god this team had some moxie, if little else. A couple calls didn't go our way last night. If Pitt had made a couple of plays, that were wide open,(wheel route to RB) the game was a rout. 6. Tackling by DB's, yikes!
Bad calls are and will continue to be part of the game. Teams benefit from the good ones and are decimated by the bad. I ask you to go back and look at the ND hit on the defensless Washington receiver at the end of that game and tell me that was a legal hit. I think not. ND has been on both sides, as has many other teams. Quit whining
In reply to Gruden and Fulmer. And,I am just saying, Gruden took over for a coach in Tampa that had turned around a dismal program and came within a couple of plays and a bad call of going to the Super Bowl. The Bucs even held St. Louis (99) to 11 points in the dome.
And, Fulmer took over or stole the job from a coach that over his last four years had won 80% of his games for an average of about 10 wins a year in a conference where Fla and Alabama were both championship caliber teams.
If ND is going to make a change, ask Tony Dungy first and then again.
Be quiet...
Iowa, Boise State, Navy and now Pitt all win with two and some three star recruits and ND can't do it with four and five star guys. Worse, Navy and Pitt made ND look very average in the process. This is all coaching. Charlie is trying and if it weren't for his initial cocky attitude, I would feel sorry for him.
The guys are frustrated. Did you notice Clausen's reaction when they reversed the call on the final offensive play? It was almost passive resignation. Much different that his reaction on the final play against USC. Why?
Weis is wasting the football careers of some very good student athletes. I think we had one guy drafted last year. What does that tell you. The AD's for ND have not been able to make a good management decision for years. I wonder what message that sends to the student body?
ND's leadership have a responsibility to the student athletes, the student body and all the fans to do the right thing. ND football is not just a game (to many of us long time fans), it is demonstrating that a team can play at the highest levels and win, while doing it the right way and playing within the rules. It's what makes (made) ND special.
Just think. Lou is only 72 years old. Bowden and Paterno are in their 80s. What if these last 13 years and 4 coaches we would have kept Lou?
Lou was forced out because he lost 6 games in his last two years. Five of the Six were against Top 10 teams.
NorthWestern 17-15 Rose Bowl participant
Ohio State twice 13 at home 19 on the road
Florida State by 5 in the Orange Bowl
USC by 7 in '96 (I think this was the only time USC beat Lou)
and Air Force 20-17
this team is going through the motions. they have quit on this coaching staff. if weis were any kind of real coach, he would pull the plug on himself. i thought "07" was rock bottom this is another level i did not foresee. swarbuck and notre dame with every passing HOUR are embarrasing "the echos".
the over-turned call at the end of the game was a flat-out blatant slap.
When this University threw Tony Rice under the bus after the release of "Under the Tarnished Dome" - I should have not bothered to continue to root for and defend it. Rice was a prop 48. Notre Dame should have celebrated the fact that they brought a kid from a poor background and educated him. If Rice ends up in Florida, Miami, Florida State, etc - would those schools have spent the time getting him up to speed - doubtful. Notre Dame did right by that kid. So instead, the University cowers and since then has essentially de-emphasized football.
Of course they still want NBC's money.
But I digress... When that "Priest" who sits in judgment at the University invites the abortionist to address the students and faculty at this year's graduation, that was the last straw. Agree or disagree, the Holy Father in Rome doesn't recognize "common ground" on this most important issue. As far as I'm concerned Notre Dame is no longer a Catholic University...
Who do they play next week - oh yeah - Go UConn!
THE LAST REFUGE OF LOSERS... BLAME THE REPLAY AND THE REFEREES!
From my view, this game wasn't lost because of officiating. Once again, we didn't compete well. Defensively we stunk. We displayed a kicking game that was worse than atrocious and is even more amazing when you consider the fact we gave up four scholarships to kickers who regularly don't execute. Again our hopes were tied to a miracle offensive comeback which didn't happen. We continue to commit stupid penalties that have from game-to-game reflected consistently mediocre coaching. Like many of you, I'm very tired of watching ND being out-coached week-to-week and see the need for change. I say this reluctantly because I don't want to go through another painful rebuilding of the football program that has in the past 15 or so years become just as much of an Irish tradition as playing USC, Michigan, Navy, et al. While I believe a coaching change is needed, I'm not optimistic this will be the single solution to making ND anymore competitive with the premier programs. We've been down this road before and why is this time any different? Law of averages? I think it's sad that my most recent big thrills of being a ND fan seem to be centered around the naming of new coach(s), with all the hope and promise that process seems to generate. I may be a slow learner but something deep within me tells me I may not be quite so excited this go-round.
"The Refs are beating us, the Refs are beating us!"
Are you kidding me? This from a team that's seen more home cooking than Paula Deen!
ND lost because they weren't playing Purdue, Nevada (or most anyone else on their "Little Sisters of the Poor" schedule) at home, but a decent Pitt team on the road. If it weren't for Wannstedt's ill-advised decision to go prevent defense early in the 4th that allowed ND to march down the field this wouldn't have been close either.
"We should win the game cause we're wearing gold helmets" doesn't cut it any more.
ND needs to join the Big East in all sports, that way at least they will have corrupt conference officials on their side sometimes. BCS is big money for conferences. Big money leads to corruption. Cincinnati and Pitt benefited from that corruption this weekend to make sure they both maintain their rankings. All conferences are doing it, just look at all the questionable calls in SEC this year. ND leadership needs to grow up and understand how the real world works, nobody can stand alone against that much money/corruption. It is unfair to their players to continue to pit them against 12 men on the field and a 13th in the booth.
The only STAT Notre Dame fans need to consider to determine really who much of a joke their team is, is this: Over the LAST 3 YEARS YOU have played only 6 ranked teams AND YOUR RECORD IN THOSE 6 GAMES IS 0-6!!!!!!!!!! How could you even be RANKED????? What a JOKE!!!!!!!!! Urban Myer? National Championships? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Why must we wait and why must we go with the big name. That navy coach looked pretty good, he definately out coached our coaches. Why doesn't CW stay with the program and continue to recruit. If he truly loved the Irish, he would do what is best, as not to dirupt recruiting. If he just would admit that he could not pull the trigger and he is turning it over to someone else, but will remain with the program, another great recruiting class would not be disrupted. We need to act now or these recruits are going to bolt. I will giv CW a break, he was hampered by many years of bad recruiting. His problem, he can not lead. Every thing that happened last night, was a direct result of leadership
Poor officiating didn't cause the loss but didn't give ND the chance they deserved at the end. I am not just a ND fan but a college football fan. All one need do is look at the calls in the SEC this year that have protected the likes of Florida, Alabama, and LSU. The Big East replay call on the Cincy fumble at the goal line that was turned into a touchdown. Big 10 officiating in a couple of OSU and Penn State games. If officials work for a conference and that conference benefits financially from BCS Bowl appearances, might there be a little too much pressure on those officiating crews? The non calls that are happening on the field are one thing. You think there would be a little more accountability on officials who have the benfit of instant replay.
And your team might be??
Prevent? OK Ya better learn your defenses. B/c ND scored 19 in the 4th quarter and should have had the chance to go ahead, all the nay-slayers will say we only scored 19 b/c of this or didn't score 6 b/c of that. I beg you to just watch the 4th quarter again before these irrational arguments make there way onto our desktops/laptops! The only PREVENT I saw was officials PREVENTING a team from legitimately winning...or losing! I watch college football as a whole and enjoy seeing these kids battle it out every week, for those of us who do the same it is maddeningly clear: OFFICIALS ARE DECIDING THE OUTCOME OF MOST EVERY GAME.... ROBERTROBERT G What's GOIN ON WITH THEE??
Never mind the excuse that the refs cost us the game.
ND has "embarassed ALL of us diehard fans for sometime now
& I am "sick & tired" of being a fan of a so-so team!
it's not ALL Charlies fault, because our kicking game sucks
& our players do commit stupid penalties! HOWEVER, when your
team CANNOT even score a point in the first half (at home),
against NAVY,(who LOST against TEMPLE, where BILL COSBY went
to), & by the way DELAWARE.YES DELAWARE, took NAVY to the 4th
quarter before losing; its's time to make some big time changes,
WHICH INCLUDES RECRUITING VERY GOOD DEFENSIVE PLAYERS. they might
defeat UCONN & they WILL lose to STANDORD! GOODBY CHARLIE!
p.s. spring training cannot be too far away & MAYBE,JUST MAYBE,
my CUBS will come to LIFE!
My only question is......how the hell can you NOT do well at Notre Dame? The all time greatest football school in America. Great stadium, Great campus, NBC national TV every week, loads of money, great tradition and Rudy (LOL). Kids should be lining up to go to ND. I think the problem goes much deeper than we are looking at. Remember when ND president Rev. John I. Jenkins gave Obama, an abortion loving president, an honorary degree? This from the greatest Catholic school in the world. Doesn't make sense. But nothing does anymore at ND. Charlie Weis AND Rev. John I. Jenkins must go. The university and it's liberalism must go.
Where are the ND apologists now. All of the talk about BCS, easy schedule, 10 win season- What a joke this team as well as the their fans are. Your team is not relevant in college football and it hasn't been in 20 years. Just join the Ivy League because that is where you and your elitist alumni belong.
And your team might be?
to-ny dun-gy
To-ny Dun-gy
TO-ny DUN-gy
TO-NY DUN-GY
GoIrish!!
Rome 619.....
you are right. Next year is even easier. All you have to do is be on the field and see the ND players standing next to the Navy players and wonder how Navy could have even been in the game against ND. ND towered over these guys, something is wrong.
Smokehouse.....
Everything you said is correct. Many of those kids who are great athletes, simply cannot get accepted academically. Always remember, Notre Dame does not take Junior college transfers and all 5th year seniors must have their degree, prior to that 5th year. This (by ND's choice) is huge disadvantage.
But, you are right. The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages and that is why changes must be made.
I am a Pitt alum and certainly didn't want a Pitt win in which there would be any controversies or excuses but that is happening to some extent with regard to the "Clausen fumble" at the end of the game. In my opinion: (1) the replays show it was a fumble because Clausen's arm motion was not overhead but instead at a side or lower angle and therefore technically a fumble; (2) the refs missed the sidearm/underhanded attempted throw by blowing the play dead and so there should not have been a replay anyway; and (3) if 1 and 2 are not correct, then the play should have been called intentional grounding.
You never heard the news? Notre dame is a racists college so that honorary degree must have been a political ploy! YA that's it, It had nothing to do with the fact that electing Obama to the Presidency was clearly a defining moment in the HISTORY of our nation and a college with the PRESTIGE NOTRE DAME HAS would honor a man who overcame one of the, if not the largest obstacles in the history of our nation. Ya I'm Catholic, and have been since the day I was born! I'm proud to call myself a NOTRE DAME FAN and also an OBAMA supporter! I guess some of us can't look past simple details of transparency to see the bigger picture! GO IRISH!!! ALL IRISH!!!
Perhaps what is wrong with ND football is all its fans want to do is whine about the officials and call each other racists. No, on second thought, it is just Charlie Weis. I am old school, a head coach's job is simply to win. All the other stuff, is just that stuff and nonsense. Get a head coach that wins.
Bravo!!!
to StehpenOFTroy
You have your head in a very dark place. If you pull it out you may realize that Willingham's firing had nothing to do with race. It was for the same reason CW will be fired. It's the coaching stupid!
Jim-
There's a better chance of ND winning the national championship this year than the resurrection of the Cubs.
I agree, overturning a really ambiguous play where the refs had blown the ball dead after a review was bad officiating.
On the other hand, you can't get past the fact that, at best, ND would be in the position of 4th and 16 on the most critical possesion of the game. That's just not how the best teams play. Weis was right when he said they got there because of the spearing penalty - yet another dumb penalty is the real issue.
Notre Dame football is a money machine for the University, and, absent a revolt from those who matter most to the school (i.e., those who have lots of money and make big contributions), only the fear of loss of football revenues will force a change in coaching. Take it to the bank: Money, Money, Money. Joe Paterno said many years ago, when ND submitted to a partial corporate takeover by NBC, that ND had become a bank. It is true. Money Money Money.....Is this not the reality? Or am I simply a cynical old man? It hurts so much to watch my team look so poor. It will hasten my demise. Let it be so, for what is life without my Notre Dame Boys winning over all? In the next world Our Lady and Touchdown Jesus truly will care who wins Notre Dame football games. Gerry Faust's reverent signs of the cross before extra points and field goal attempts really will matter. And the little old nuns who say their prayers for a win for Our Lady's School will have the 50-yard-line seats. Best to all of you. Some day we will be on top again. There is a younger Lou Holtz out there somewhere.
robertg: You wrote "1. the 1st step for any poster who expects to be taken seriously is..." AND I JUST ABOUT FELL OUT OF MY CHAIR LAUGHING.
No one in his or her right mind takes you seriously. You're nuttier than a fruitcake. Way to use the royal "we," by the way. The voices in your head don't count as other people.
robertg, anyone who thinks YOU are an attorney also thinks that President Obama is a citizen of Kenya and that we never landed on the Moon. I AM an attorney. None of what you say will ever come to pass, Notre Dame Nostradamus. And there are (and can be) NO cases pending against the officials for what you imagine as a huge conspiracy. Pretending that you and your massive imaginary legal team are building a case? Wow. Do you also pin a towel around your neck with a safety pin and think that makes you Superman? Try jumping off your roof and let us know if you can fly. No one is going to reverse history and make it so that your Irish didn't lose the games they lost. Care to pass around some of what you're injecting between your toes, robertg? The nurses will re-supply you. Don't hold out on us.
The only thing funnier than robertg's insane tirades against the vast zebra conspiracy is the oft-repeated notion that somehow, someway, Urban Meyer would walk away from winning multiple national championships with Florida for the chance to coach at ND, a school he ALREADY turned down. ND isn't the prize it used to be, and it certainly isn't going to get Meyer to tarnish his stellar reputation simply by throwing NBC's money at him. Would you break up with a supermodel so you could date Rosie O'Donnell?
Some of you apologists keep dodging the issue. Why is Weis still coaching at ND? Same record as Willingham, same winning percentage as Davie. But he gets paid boatloads of money and has a multi-year contract. You can pretend he's an offensive genius all you like; in my book an offensive genius knows how to use his talent (AND the game clock!) and understands each facet of the offensive game. Last I checked, the kicking game AND the running game are big parts of the offense. So why take out the RB who got you to the red zone, just to run the same uninspired passing plays that fail again and again? How do you get blanked in the red zone 4 times against NAVY? If Tate is so good, why doesn't Tate have 15 catches a game? Why not get Tate the ball on reverses, screens, wildcat, something, anything, to take advantage of his allegedly incomparable skill? If Clausen is so good, why does he have to keep trying to bring the team back in the 4th quarter? Why is he only able to drive the ball down the field in the 4th quarter? (hint: the other team has a big lead and gives up everything underneath...) And if Weis is so good, why can't he devise a running game or a pass-blocking scheme with all the experienced O-linemen? Weis is an offensive genius like a pair of scissors is the ideal tool for cutting my lawn. It's adequate at what it does, but it doesn't do what's needed.
More to the point, you cannot deny that Weis obviously knows nothing about defense and hasn't got a defensive mastermind in place to cover his ignorance. Yet you fall all over yourselves pretending that it's not his fault and it's only ND's lofty academic standards to blame. So...how does Stanford manage to beat quality opponents (in my school's case, BADLY)? Stanford is much tougher academically than ND. Hint: Stanford has a head coach. Not a guy who sticks it to his own defensive player who has the temerity to admit his team got out-schemed. Not a guy who claims that he will never change, no matter the situation, even though situations demand adjustments on the fly. Are you telling me that Weis couldn't see that Navy was beating his team with its fullback, and couldn't re-assign a linebacker to hit the fullback on every play? Come on, that's Pop Warner stuff.
And stop whining about the refs. They're on YOUR side. ND gets all the breaks. Personal fouls called against USC for flexing muscles after a play, but not against ND for the same thing. Late hit called on Mays for a LEGAL hit, but no late hit on the joker who hit McKnight after he took four long strides out of bounds. Unnecessary roughness called on Mays for hitting a guy with the ball. No pass interference called on USC's last drive, when our receiver got mugged so bad even freshman QB Barkley couldn't help but ask the officials how they missed it. Extra time mysteriously added to the clock even after Clausen was already pouting to Barkley. TD taken away from Washington, whose running back CLEARLY scored.
Oh, and Clausen is a joy to watch. For ND's rivals, that is. His cheap shot that resulted in a personal foul made me laugh. At the end of each game, he gets visibly frustrated and angry. Decent talent, but poor sportsmanship. He pushed Navy's players away when they tried to come say "good game" after the final whistle blew.
You know, there's supporting your team, and then there's pretending that up is down and down is up. My own team has a lot of work to do to maintain the standard our beloved head coach has set. I'd be lying if I said I was happy with the defense or the overall execution. But we have a new offensive coordinator, a new defensive coordinator, a true freshman taking snaps, 8 new starters on defense to replace the guys who went to the NFL, and injuries to our star RB Johnson, star WR Williams, star TE McCoy, and 3 starting LB's. You're not going to win every game on your schedule with that team, even if, like ND, you schedule Little Sisters of the Poor in an attempt to get into a BCS bowl.
Ok, so when does the "let's give Weis another year for HIS recruits to shine" chant start up? He's in his 5th year. Whose recruits is he fielding? Let's find a way to blame it all on Lou Holtz or Ty Willingham. I really like Lou Holtz, by the way. He said "don't tell anyone your problems. 90% of the people don't care, and the other 10% are glad you have them. I bet you know where I fall on that spectrum, Weis-apologists. Can't wait to see what Stanford does to YOUR school.
Stephen: Don't you realize that robertg's comments are tongue-in-cheek? You need to take a some medicine.
Stephen: Don't you realize that robertg's comments are tongue-in-cheek? You need to take a some medicine.
Bottom Line: Tongue-in-cheek? Really? I've seen sarcasm. That ain't it. It's delusional. But hilarious all the same.
In football as in life, racism simply DOES NOT EXIST! Every so called instance of racism can be brushed aside by rational, insightful explanations. From murders to employment practices to police brutality to head football coach firing practices, it simply isn't a reality in America. Let's move past this and enjoy the rest of the football season people.
I was extremely dismayed by the lack of effort in this loss to Pitt. Prior to Tate's amazing run back, it really seemed that this team had resigned itself to another loss. I'm afraid 6-6 on the year is the sad reality. However, my dismay turned to pure joy this morning when I saw that robertg and his team will be filing civil racketeering lawsuits immediately. Yeah robertg, that'll show 'em!
@willmose I agree completely with your comments.
@Keith Arnold - thanks so much for your last sentence of Point #4 above....now robertg will never shut up (and you have yourself to blame).
@StephenofTroy - I like your comment that you are a double trojan....perhaps your father should have worn such on the night you were conceived. Go to your own team's boards and don't bring your nonsense here.
Regards,
Your pal,
Art Vandelay
Why does anyone think that changing coaches now will make a difference. After Holtz we had Davies, an assistant coach who was promoted. Then we get Willingham, a coach at a University with comparable academic standards and graduate rates for athletes. Then we get Charlie Weis, another assistant but in the NFL, and an ND grad who had to qualify academically for admission. Head coaches are not standing in line for the ND job no matter what the naysayers of Weis may think. As an ND grad, I think we are better off sticking with Charlie for another year or two. Another change at this point will only cause more problems. Don't blame the coaches, blame the administrators who pick the coaches. Why do you think their decisions will be any better?
...PhalusOfTroy...Heres the deal...Willingham was the absolute worst football coach in history...he could not recruit, he could not coach...he could not organize...he could not scheme...and oh my god...he could not build a staff, and he had the stereotypical work ethic of the entitlement era. How he ever got hired in the first place is beyond me...he was mediocre at best before Notre Dame, and a miserable failure during and after..howd his Washington Gig go?
Charlie shares some similarities, but he has a resume that says he had some success before this gig...he also recruits better, and works his ass off, and the players love the guy.
I think his time has come, but don't come in here with that race bullshit...it dtracts from situations where race is at play...dumbass.
I'm a 30 year old catholic also and all this racist, refs cheated, new coaching hire talk is making me sick! ND was outplayed last night by a much more bigger, athletically talented PITT team regaurdless of how close the score was. ND players ie Brian Smith do way too much talking before the game and never back it up on the field. Most of our players would be on the bench on most of these BCS schools. It's a complete disgrace to be an ND fan in this day and age where the players lack so much integrity, dignity, and self-respect. Here's my view from the cheap seats: Clausen great talent with huge NFL arm and upside. But if he leaves early for the league I hope he doesn't get drafted by a team with a week O-line because he certainly can't handle pressure very well. Anytime any little thing goes wrong he loses his cool which at times I feel affects his decision making process in feeling the rush and reading the defense. And I'm not talking about the times when the O-line doesn't do their job. He reminds me of a great QB when things are going good and everything goes his way. But when things don't go his way he flips back to that LIMO HUMMER riding spoiled rotten SOUTHERN CAL lil brat who cries over any and every little thing. It seems like opposing D-Lineman and defenseman in general love to get in his face and talk trash before and after plays as if they know they can get in his head and get him to react negatively. Golden Big Game Tate also has a lot of promise and has great NFL strength, speed, and athleticism. But seeems to be too lacadasical at times and seems to take a play or two off here and there. He also is overly flamboyant and cocky at times which I think if he leaves for the NFL will hurt him the moment he realizes that there are NFL corners stronger, faster, and better tacklers than he has faced in college. Which means he'd better get better at route running and the fundamentals of the postion before he get's his dose of reality check at the next level. I must say I love both of the players to death and am a die hard ND supporter no matter how bad the turmoil, controversy, coaching, players, etc. I think that Jimmy and Tate need to grow up some more and must brushen up or fine tune their skills just a little bit more with another year of college ball. Not to only show everyone how much more they've progressed in their skills and maturity but also that they are ultimate leaders and champions on the field also. FIGHT IRISH 4EVER!
As the mother of a current ND student I think that a lot of the anti-Notre Dame whining is pure jealousy. Yes they are having a bad year. Yes the call in the Pitt game was criminal in its wrongness. I for one would have liked to see what Jimmy and the boys would have done on 4th and 16. I don't know if it's Charlie Weiss or not, but I do know that Notre Dame has very high standards for admission and I know that a lot of people who couldn't ever get in to the college (or any other college) are judging them. It's a great school, a classy school and several of those losses could have been wins, i.e. Navy Michigan. The reffing has been against ND all year. I don't know about the money and politics but I watch every game intently and have been a football fan for 40 years. I love watching ND football and agree with the previous poster that I would NEVER root against them. I don't know why Stephen of Troy is even posting here. Post on your own board and leave us alone.
Weis can't cheat at ND like he did with the NE Patriots. He also had no head coaching experience prior to being offered and accepting the ND football head coaching job. The ND search and selection process for a head football coach has been so incompetently managed and politicized since the departure of Lou Holtz. They need to find a more unlikely candidate like Ara Parseghian was when he was chosen at the end of the 1963 season. Why Urban Meyer wasn't approached much sooner several years ago remains a mystery. Jack Swarbrick and the selection committee need to look for another Leahy, if he exists, but DON'T make the mistake of signing the next heat football coach to a long (anything over 3 years) term contract. Weis's reported 20M dollar severance package is a waste of university funds that could be better spent!
Weis can't cheat at ND like he did with the NE Patriots. He also had no head coaching experience prior to being offered and accepting the ND football head coaching job. The ND search and selection process for a head football coach has been so incompetently managed and politicized since the departure of Lou Holtz. They need to find a more unlikely candidate like Ara Parseghian was when he was chosen at the end of the 1963 season. Why Urban Meyer wasn't approached much sooner several years ago remains a mystery. Jack Swarbrick and the selection committee need to look for another Leahy, if he exists, but DON'T make the mistake of signing the next heat football coach to a long (anything over 3 years) term contract. Weis's reported 20M dollar severance package is a waste of university funds that could be better spent!
The apologists never stop. The problem with the Willingham firing had more to do with the school's "policy" to give coaches so much time to develop their talent. Ty didn't get that time. On top of that Charlie then came in and got a huge extension based on half a season with Ty's boys. As Charlie did with Ty's boys, Ty initially won with Davies' boys (correct?). Ty was not successful at Notre Dame (no dispute), but how could any argument against him not apply to Charlie? Once the shine faded off of the new hires, true coaching skills began to present themselves in BOTH instances. Charlie has performed woefully bad during his tenure so I just don't understand where all of the unwaivering support comes from (recruiting, hard work, talent development, etc.). Just as I don't understand how people can be so harsh on a coach who did just as much as Charlie as done. Personally I did not want Ty to be the coach at Notre Dame as soon as I heard the announcement because I KNEW it would play out like this and now no one can get past it because he simply did not get the time afforded to every other ND coach (this also cannot be disputed). Now that they are in bed with him, I for one hope ND NEVER fires Weis. Put emotion aside and base your arguments on cold hard facts and you might realilze you have no argument at all.
I hope this never happens. It would be another disaster. Charlile must stay.
The ultimate golden boy could have been called for intentional grounding. However, There is no way the replay showed that it was a fumble. There is no way the replay showed the Washington player was stopped short of the goal, as well. I have always felt that all the bad replay calls go NDs way. Yesterday was a shocker for me.
It's over for Charlie Weis!!!He had his chance!kickers. they are Wake up.You pay a guy millions to win without cheating. He hasn't done either! I wish Weis well.The overall performance,or lack of it, of The Irish football players is exceeded only by it's Coaching staff.The officials in last nights game are tarnished ,no questioned.That said what is so different from an official being dishonest and a group of Coaches taking huge sums of money and not performing as they said they would?For that matter, players not doing there best to help teammates accomplish common goals.How many ridiculous penalties does the offensive line get to commit.How many 20 yard punts,dropped balls does a punter get? Enough of mediocrity,enough of players looking elsewhere for answers ,it's time to look at yourselves.Big East officials were dishonest during last night game.NO QUESTION!BUT Notre Dame football team lost because they didn't care enough to win!!!!3 toughest guys on the field for ND.Two wide receivers and a QB!Ouch!
It's over for Charlie Weis!!!He had his chance!kickers. they are Wake up.You pay a guy millions to win without cheating. He hasn't done either! I wish Weis well.The overall performance,or lack of it, of The Irish football players is exceeded only by it's Coaching staff.The officials in last nights game are tarnished ,no questioned.That said what is so different from an official being dishonest and a group of Coaches taking huge sums of money and not performing as they said they would?For that matter, players not doing there best to help teammates accomplish common goals.How many ridiculous penalties does the offensive line get to commit.How many 20 yard punts,dropped balls does a punter get? Enough of mediocrity,enough of players looking elsewhere for answers ,it's time to look at yourselves.Big East officials were dishonest during last night game.NO QUESTION!BUT Notre Dame football team lost because they didn't care enough to win!!!!3 toughest guys on the field for ND.Two wide receivers and a QB!Ouch!
Stephen - I am clearly partisan, but you should understand that the officials at the ND home games come from the conference the opponent is in, not from ND - so the calls you mentioned were not "homer" calls despite the fact that they came at home.
The other thing that boggles my mind is the intensity of opinion about college football. At the end of the day, these are 18 - 23 yr. old kids. And last time I checked, for a lot of them, this is the time they are working on a college degree as well as playing football! All of the naysayers and critics could NEVER get out there and do one tenth as well as any of these athletes. How do you know if they're giving 100%? I know how hard ND works its athletes. So bash the coaches and admin if you will, but please give these kids a break. They are NOT professionals and those of you who actually went to college know what a rough time of life this is.
I agree partially with that BUT WHY did CLAUSEN shw up to a news conference in STRETCH HUMMER to anounce his commitment to ND? SURELY NOT to announce he was going to get an ND DEGREE.
WOW!!! You are a lawyer. I'll bet you charge by the word. Just joking. I enjoyed reading it.
I agree with almost everything you said (and read every word of it too.) I am a Notre Dame fan and have been for 50-years. I am tired of other ND fans blaming the ref, the academic standards, and anything else they can think of for our problems. It is almost all coaching and motivation. I believe that Clausen's behavior after games, as well as the play of the many of the players on the field reflects two things: 1. poor game plans, and 2. frustration.
Can Charlie the Tuna.
Come off it Jane Ellen!This Country has kids the same age in war zones.Working a helluva lot harder and sacrificing a hell of a lot more than these kids.Lets not treat these football players as so many treat children these days.Like if they fall off their scooter (with their helmet on ,of course) they will forever be scarred...These players need to look at the proverbial:"Man in the Mirror"! Coaches also!!They are not doing it,they are not getting it done!!
Memo to all who pay attention to this board:
No one cares. NOTRE DAME is completely irrelevant to the top level of college football. You exist only to suck the teet of NBC, or is it the other way around??? ND should have its contract with NBC ripped up. There are plenty of other teams who have huge national followings AND deserve to be in the spotlight, based on EARNING it on the field sometime this decade, not 70 years ago. NBC should give the contract to Ohio State, huge following, success, and it would be just what they need to get over the hump of those big game letdowns. Give the Buckeyes all the unfair advantages ND has enjoyed for so long, and Tressel will win many more championships.
Sounds like you Buckeye fans whine a lot too. Was the Purdue game a let down that wouldn't have happened had you had a NBC TV contract? Brother. But then that's why my second favorite time is whoever is playing Ohio State.
GO BLUE!!!
Can you say transfers? What has happened to Honor.All this talk about Weis being fired!!!!I would have thought he and his "staff" would do the Honorable thing and RESIGN!!!!
Can you say transfers? What has happened to Honor.All this talk about Weis being fired!!!!I would have thought he and his "staff" would do the Honorable thing and RESIGN!!!!
AS an atheist, I love to see Pedophile University go down.Catholics still go to church knowing that the liklyhood that the hand of the "priest" giving them communion has also been the hands that ruined the innocence of so many young children. Go any team that can put Notre Dame out of focus and into the dustpan of history.
The easiest schedule in college football and the DOMERS can't/won't even win 8 games. What a disgrace Notre Lame is.They are good at whinning though and making excuses.Pure and simple ND SUCKS.
Maybe charlie and the AD can schedule some High School football teams to play against next season, that should get them into a bowl game.LOL
And take the defensive coaches with him. The D is the worst. One more thing, the Irist have had 95 % of the replays go against them. Last night was the worst, how can not give them a chance to win the game.
And the penalties at the worst time, they have had TD called back, big plays called back, momentum stopped on drives. Remember when Lou was the coach and an O linemen did something wrong, off th field he would come and Lou would be in his face. Charlie just stands there with his play calling card in front of his face. Watching them is like going to dentist and having a tooth pulled.
I'm a die heart Irish fan since 1953, we need a change, we gave Charlie 5 years and he hasn't done the job.
There is nothing "surprising" about the fact that Armando Allen and the running game was effective against Pitt. With Allen in the game, the running game has been very effective all year, **but monstrously under-utilized** by an offense that is overly gimmicky and lacks any sort of ball control or consistency in its approach. They will run once, pick up 5 or 6 yards, then throw the rest of the downs. 2 downs to get 4 or 5 yards is good odds. Give Armando Allen the ball. Sure you've got a great quarterback and receivers, but the running game is never a real factor because it is never allowed to develop into one. Thus, the zone defenses and such make Clausen and co. pick apart a field rather crowded with secondary defenders. Weis, quit being so 'clever', run the ball with Allen, the pass when appropriate. Admittedly, none of the other backs have proved consistent enough (Hughes and to a lesser extent Riddick have had moments, but haven't been real forces). But when Allen is healthy, run the hell out of him, he is a great runner. And your offensive schemes, for all the hype, are disappointing.
With any due respect, Jeff, you can hardly compare the armed troops with ND students. I changed my mind, I won't even begin to explain why. I respect the troops immensely, but did you know that over 50% of women in the armed forces are raped/sexually assaulted? And guess who's doing the assaulting. Let's stick with football. By the way I love Ohio State too.
thank you for showing us that millions of people are more intelligent than you!!
Florida
1. unless charlie and his staff get disgusted and quit to protect their families from the latest savage media attacks( with paid shills eric hansen, al lesar, and bob wieneke of the south bend tribune leading the charge as usual), there will be no coaching changes at notre dame.
2. charlie and his staff and notre dame's student athletes have done everything they were asked to do correctly and courageously and with honesty and integrity against overwhelming odds, while having to keep silent about the dishonest officiating which has led directly to every one of nd's 4 losses on paper this season.
3. the crooked officiating, rules enforcement(look at the meltdowns on and off the field of pete carroll's crooked usc football program), and rankings systems and the phony full time "college" football programs will simply not be around next season.
4. those of us who got on the inside of the decsion making process when some very naieve people at notre dame allowed themselves to be terrorized into firing tyrone willingham in a manner which violated every principle for which notre dame has always stood know that, before charlie was hired. notre dame was very seriously considering dropping big time football at notre dame and going ivy league.
5. moving in another coach would have zero positive and many irreversible negative effects, including the departures of jimmy clausen and golden tate and every one of notre dame's 2010 verbals.
6. if any real notre dame fans want to assist notre dame's enemies in killing off notre dame football, just keep ignoring the corrupt officiating, rules enforcement, and rankings systems and keep hammering away at charlie and his staff and notre dame's student athletes who also play football and they will become disgusted and leave notre dame.
7. not even a coaching staff and a team composed of touchdown jesuses could be doing better than charlie and his staff and notre dame's student athletes who also play football until the current corrupt officiating, rules enforcement, and rankinbgs systems are destroyed and replaced by honest high tech systems completely transparent and fully accountable to the public.
8. we will always love notre dame whether notre dame plays football at the bcs level or in the ivy league.
9. as for notre dame's enemies and pseudo fans who keep hammering away at charlie and his staff and at notre dame's student athletes, none of you( with the exception of notre dame's enemies, such as eric hansen)has the slightest understanding of all of the good and fine things that notre dame stands for.
10. getting into the sewers with the pete carrolls, urban meyers, nick sabans, and many others in "college" football and cheating to win is simply not a road that notre dame will ever take.
11. anyone who wants a school that cheats to win at football has no place at notre dame and can find plenty of teams that play that way to root for.
12. of course, these fair weather only fans will have to shift gears next season when they find that none of the schools that cheat to win at football are able to operate that way any more.
GO IRISH!!!
No the highlight of the season was another loss for Charlie. I pray that he stays on for the duration of his contract so he can end his career 0-11 vs SC
#58 To Stephen Of Troy:
Laugh while you can. Just do some research. Go to Wikepedia.com and do a search for RICO Act on 1970 by the USA Congress. (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations). RobertG wrote this piece of legislation. His name is G. Robert Blakey. When he and his legal associates are finished I'll we'll be the ones smiling. Look what they did with the Enron and MCI WorldCom scandals. Have a good one! Haha. Go Irish!!!
1. ken lay and his fellow con artists at enron also fell out of their chairs laughing, along with their huge acounting firm( no longer in business) and law firms(out of business or stripped of their material possesions, when we 1st told them that we had figured out how their books were cooked and how they ran their con operations.
2. some of them were still laughing when their civil rico trials started.
3. none of them are laughing now.
4. we sincerely hope that your laughter is due to stupidly and ignorance, instead of active cooperation in these con operations.
5. we hope that you did not injure yourself falling out of your chair. if you can still stand up, look in the mirror. you will find that your head is screwed on backwards.
GO IRISH!!!
Wrong.........Faust
phgreek: Before you go around calling someone "dumbass," you MIGHT want to learn to spell "phallus." Just saying.
Do you people actually think that childish name-calling, telling me to "be quiet," wishing that my father had worn two condoms on the night I was conceived, or wishing that I'd go to some other board will either (a) actually make me go away or (b) diminish the validity of my points in ANY way? I guess ND doesn't teach logic, or if it does it isn't any better at doing so than Charlie Weis is at coaching his 5-star recruits in the fine art of beating the service academy.
From what I can tell, you don't have any substantive responses, and instead you resort to silly ad hominem attacks or fervent prayers that I'll go pick on some other loser. Sorry. UCLA is next week. Until then you're on the radar. I never thought you guys would lose AGAIN to Navy, and then I thought you'd come out breathing fire against Pitt. Fooled me twice. Shame on me!
To the dolt who thinks racism doesn't exist in America at ALL: Wow. Just...wow. What you don't know would fill several warehouses, if not ND's stadium. But let's not hijack this board with racism. The issue to focus on is how awful Charlie Weis is and how every day he spends on the job is a day wasted as far as bringing ND back to its former glory is concerned.
Art Vandelay: Clever nickname. But if your put-down skills are at all indicative of your creativity, intellect, or drive, all I can say is "and YOU wanna be my latex salesman?" Fat chance. Advantage Vaarnsen.
ugetwutuask4: I think you made some very good points about Clausen and Tate. I agree 100%. As to Tate, his route-running and effort level could be a lot sharper, and he must get better if he wants to succeed.
I'll give you an example from my own team. A couple of years ago, we had two very good, but very different, wideouts: Dwayne Jarrett and Steve Smith. Jarrett was a physical freak who simply outran everyone and could use his quickness to make up for erratic effort. He led the Pac-10 in career TD's after only three seasons played. He came out early and ended up...not starting in the NFL. Smith was not as fast, but was an incredible route-runner, very precise, and always worked hard. He won a Super Bowl ring as a rookie, starting for the Giants. Now he's Eli Manning's go-to receiver in most games.
I love to watch ANY college players who give 100% effort, and while it's nice to see the physically-superlative players show off their skills, what I prefer is to see a TEAM work hard. For example, when T.O. runs 65 yards downfield to throw a block that springs another receiver or RB, or tackle the guy who made a pick, I cheer louder than when he catches a 5 yard screen, stiff-arms the pathetic DB into the turf, and runs 50 yards for the score.
To the Irish mom who doesn't know why I post here: I would ask the same question about why the lousy Irish are on my television EVERY Saturday. I don't want to listen to the pathetic pollyanna hyping the NBC announcers do for ND every week. Yet there they are. If you don't like what I write, don't read it. Truth hurts, eh?
I find comical these people who are heel bent on a coaching change at ND. They remind me of the people who really want the government running health care or think G.W. Bush is a demonic incarnation. The media needs this uncertainty and like lemmings the public obliges. Look at the facts: when has recruiting been this good at ND? when has the offense been so potent? Never! You ND fans waited 20 years or more for those things. When this team gets a first-rate defense (which it will if it has coaching stability with Weis), then the championships will line up. Do you REALLY want to start over with a mediocre offense, a terrible defense, and start and stop recruiting years? THAT is what takes a long time to recover from -- ask the Trojans, Cornhuskers, Sooners, Crimson Tide, or Wolverines. STABILITY and patience with the right guy builds a dynasty -- NOT THE MEDIA!!!!!!
Nice comments by fans of a Christian school.
Mick Devlon: You're right. Ty didn't get sufficient time to recruit and develop his talent.
The question is why not.
ND has given Weis more than enough time.
The question is why.
And there's no rational argument that somehow ND's facilities are sub-par, or that not enough money has been made available for hiring a coaching staff, or that ND is limited in the players available for it to recruit. ND is on national TV every week; everyone who wants to see a game (and many who do NOT) can do so.
ND broke a long-standing rule by firing Willingham so early, and now it has to stick with Weis or it will forever have the "coaching hot seat" albatross around its neck.
But by sticking with Weis, it only puts the Davie / Willingham / Holtz firings into bold relief.
The university that claims to be about more than wins and losses (it's apparently about TV revenue!) fired 3 good coaches because they wanted more wins. Simple as that. And now they're not getting the wins.
Firing Lou Holtz was a terrible decision. That man belongs in the Hall of Fame, along with Bowden and Paterno. Seeing him yank an ND lineman's face mask (and the lineman's PADS weigh more than Holtz, just about) while chewing him out always made me wish my high school football coach was more like that.
You guys crack me up. That, more than anything, is why I read these boards. Your whining is why I post here. So keep it up.
ND'90: I appreciate what you're saying, and I knew it already (e.g., the Pac-10 came out after the game and said its officials should have flagged ND for deceptive substitution on the fake field goal). But my point is simply that ND gets the benefit of MANY a questionable call. I don't speculate as to WHY they get those calls. I just point out that they get them. I don't think, for example, that some Big East official is thinking he or she owes it to the Big East to make iffy calls against ND as a means of increasing the chance that a Big East school will get into a BCS bowl. That's lunacy for several reasons. But again, ND'90, thank you for your civility and the factually correct (but irrelevant to me) point.
Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 90 the year that ND beat Colorado, and Chris Zorich cried to an interviewer afterward? I loved Chris Zorich. To me, that moment was what college football is about. Fight on. Or whatever it is you Irish do these days. :)
You're right they should have given Ty five years like they did Davie and Faust and just not renew his contract. That is what they did to Davie and Faust. Ty was one of the only coaches I remember getting fired. But, he did have the job at Washington fast; faster than it took Urban to turn down ND. And, come on, in light of his record at Washington, he couldn't have turned around the Irish with the recruits of Holtz, Ara, Leahy, and Rockne combined.
IndianaJoe: No, I don't get paid by the word. I think that went out with Charles Dickens. Thanks for reading. I fully expect, by the way, to have to put up with ND's faithful pointing out SC's missteps if we do what your school does and go through a decade-long rebuilding phase (again).
I went to SC from 93 - 00 for college and law school, and we lost to UCLA EVERY year for those 7 years.
Rivalries are only rivalries if each team has a shot to win, which is why I wasn't that upset about losing 13-9 to UCLA a couple years ago, which cost us a shot at the title game. I WAS upset that I'd gone to the Rose Bowl and gotten great seats for the game, though.
So I want ND to bet better. And then I want us to beat you 38-0 again. :)
StephenofTroy, just when I start to agree with much of what you are saying, you go and say something stupid like "I don't want to listen to the pathetic pollyanna hyping the NBC announcers do for ND every week". Do you need someone to explain to you how the remote works? If you don't like it watch something else. Facts are facts, Notre Dame is the most followed college football team in the country, bar none.
I get tired of watching Florida, Texas and others play teams that are way out of their league. Tim Teboe is a very good quarterback, but I also get tired of hearing the media hype him regardless of what he does, or who they are playing. I don't got to Florida blogs and bad mouth them. Let them have their day. They have earned it and it will be over soon enough.
ND will be back, but Charlie the Tuna will not be the coach.
By-the-way, the ND vs UConn game is on NBC this coming Saturday at 2:00 PM EST. Enjoy.
mrrandolph: I'm not an apologist for Willingham. I just call a spade a spade. Ahem. But I think, as to Washington, that Willingham was just snake-bitten. In the first game of his 0-12 season, the QB scored on a run that would have won the game, and then flipped the ball back over his shoulder in celebration. Refs flagged him for, you guessed it, celebration. Backs the extra point up. Missed. Huskies lose. It was a horrendous call. I think it mentally dogged the Huskies, and their coach, all season. Losses snowballed from there. And my best friend, a UW alum, backs me up when I say that UW just doesn't have the talent or mind-set to win. They may do better now that they have our former OC and DC there. But I don't think Willingham's 0-12 record defines him, in any way. He did very well at Stanford, turns out good young men, his players graduate, and he conducts himself and his program with class. If he had been given the same time and LONG leash that Weis has, I think he'd have beaten Navy in South Bend, and I think you'd have some bowl wins. That's all I will say about a guy who coached 3 teams my Trojans play every year.
@StephenofTry:
Your first post: Sun Nov 15,2009 2:26 AM ET
Your most recent post: Sun Nov 15,2009 6:30 PM ET
You've invested a lot of time in being annoying. What's your point? To tell us the Irish aren't currently competitive with USC? To tell us we need a new coach? Change your handle to Captain Obvious. We know all that. These things are most certainly cyclical. I think ND had a streak of 11-0 vs. USC at one time. You can be sure that if the internet was as pervasive at the time we were up, I wouldn't have been on some Trojan website being a douche, I would handle winning with the same sense of sportsmanship and integrity that we are now displaying while on a down cycle. You are like a gnat.....pesky and annoying as hell at first, but you soon go away. Go find some constructive to do in your sorry little life. By the way, the series stands at 42-34-5, advantage ND.
John C. Mayer: Come on, man. There's no need for the pedophile stuff. I'm an atheist too. But what you said is out of bounds. Let's stay on college football, if not on ND's program specifically. You can go elsewhere to discuss the indefensible acts of people who have nothing to do with college football.
Art, sorry I missed all the sportsmanship and integrity. Must have overlooked it when I was looking at all the whining, teeth-gnashing, (incorrect) belittling of opponents' academic standards, sour grapes, conspiracy-theory-inventing, and people telling me my dad should have used contraception.
Thanks for updating me about the series all-time standing. Just one thing though. Was Jimmy Clausen alive the last time ND won?
So I'm a gnat? Bzzzzz.....Bzzzzz....Does ND still suck? Yep. Bzzzz......Bzzzz....Guess I didn't go away. You suck at predicting the future just like you suck at excusing the past.
robertg, your comments are funny. 4th & 16? Clausen would have been sacked. The officials got it right and ND got the loss they richly desreved.
1. keith and his staff have a large and growing audience.
2. some of them are notre dame's enemies. others are fair weather only notre dame fans.
3. others are real notre dame fans who have been misled by the media and who take the information posted here and find out the real facts.
4. still others prefer to remain ignorant and to blame charlie and his staff and notre dame's student athletes for paper losses orchestrated by dishonest officials to schools which do not field teams composed of real student athletes.
5. we also find many internet posts to be highly entertaining, but the real action takes place in the civil courts at real jury trials before honest judges with film and expert and other witnesses providing the evidence.
6. tyrone is a fine gentleman who was not warned by those at notre dame who then had decision making power over footbasll matters that bob davie had allowed notre dame's recruiting network to die on the vines.
7. by the time tyrone was fired in a manner which was disgraceful for notre dame and which cost notre dame many millions of dollars(basically, notre dame had to pay tyrone salary while tyrone was at washington) tyrone knew that he was not the right person for the notre dame job and would have resigned with dignity if he had been given the chance.
8. there are plenty of other places where charlie and his staff could be without having their families exposed to the constant hate mongering that they face at notre dame.
9. charlie and his staff are big boys and they can deal with the negativity. however, they have families to consider. notre dame's student athletes know that wins are being stolen from them by dishonest officiating crews which are hired and paid by conferences, none of which notre dame football is a member.
10. the current sportsmanship conduct rules at the conference and ncaa levels require them all to be silent about the dishonest officiating, rules enforcement, and rankings systems.
11. there comes a point when notre dame's coaches and players get disgusted enough to leave notre dame.
12. if jack swarbrick and those who have decision making powers on football maters at notre dame do not come out with public statements of support for charlie and his staff and notre dame's student athletes very soon, along with demands that the current corrupt officiating, rules enforcement, and rankings system be changed, then charlie and his staff and notre dame's current and future student athletes will leave notre dame and not even touchdown jesus will be able to bring back notre dame football as we have known it.
13. anyone who really loves notre dame will have to start thinking before they post. otherwise, they will give notre dame's enemies exactly what they have been spending untold millions to accomplish for many years.
14. we know what has to be done in the civil courts.
15. however, those who count in the notre dame community and who love notre dame and really understand college football have to circle the wagons right now and say in public the things that charlie and his staff and notre dame's student athletes cannot because of these so called sportmanship conduct rules. which will be gone before next season begins.
GO IRISH!!!
You're right that is a horrendous call. Celebration come on. It is not worth fifteen yards. Flag a team Five at the most or a warning (like a sideline warning). I do wish, however,that if you want to utilize replay in a useful way, review personal fouls and quit penalizing the second man.
And, I had to eat alot of egg after the Willingham firing, I had alot of friends that heard on SportsTalk radio that he was going to be fired and I said No Way. They will let him coach out his contract and just not renew it. I don't know, however, if ND wanted out or if Ty did.
Duely noted. And I want the Irish to get back to where they should be (at least in our minds) and the beat USC in LA 51 to 0 again.
I enjoy your posts. The good natured exchanges are one of the things I like most about college football.
By-the-way, I am a subway alum, not a grad, but I love the Irish just the same.
NRS: Anyone who thinks that robertg is THE G. Robert Blakey, the man who wrote the RICO Act, deserves to watch Charlie Weis try to coach his way out of a Navy-blue paper bag, day after day, like Sisyphus rolling that boulder up a hill for all eternity. You've GOT to be kidding me.
IndianaJoe: You're all right. If you can't razz your college football rivals in a good-spirited way, what CAN you have any fun with these days?
And subway alum or otherwise, you're entitled to cheer for and defend your team. My Dad didn't even go to college, much less ND, but until I went to USC, Notre Dame was by far his favorite team (he claims not to have a favorite now, but the light in his eyes when he saw the IRISH sweatshirt I bought him a few Christmases ago tells another story...)
See you around the boards. If I ever see you in person, then if you buy the first round I'll listen to your exaggerated re-telling of the 51-0 game (or what you remember of the telegram your dusty village got that described it, since TV wasn't invented then).
Ha Ha Ha!!! That is the old fashion way out communicating a good laugh. I will buy the first round and tell you about the 1966 ND trouncing of the Men from Troy 51 to 0. By-the-way, the Irish won the national championship that year.
Ok, ok, ok, I know that was 43 years ago, but at my age selective recall is a good thing.
glad that you include the whole SEC in your comment then!!
Looks like Keith took the day off and I can't say I blame him! We should probably all take heed and follow in his footsteps.
I think you all forget that ND has 4 losses by a total of 18 points, not too bad being in every game is better than losing by 30. I know a loss is a loss. I think CW should get one more year to see what he can do with 9 starters from the defense coming back and all the skill on offense back. I am also tired of people saying the schedule is weak. Take a good look at this schedule it is not weak, even Nevada is having a good season and all but 3 teams are going to be bowl eligible out of 12. I do think CW needs to bring in some defensive players this year and a top notch OC. I also think it is time to have one DC not two of them. If they do these things they can be in the mix next year.
Also, no more Big East replay idiots cheating against them.
StephenOfTroy:
Have you done the research or not? THEE G. Robert Blakey, which you apparently seem to be familiar with since you also practice law as you say, is a Notre Dame alumnus and since 2007 is also a leading law professor there. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Robert_Blakey.
I hope you get a chance to be in the courtroom when the judge and jury offers its decision! Cheers to good old-fashion justice. :)
Go Irish!!!
PS. By the way, being that he is one of the most revered lawyers in the country, if you do a bit more reading up you might be able to learn a few things from him for the betterment of your own career too.
I'm not totally positive were Lou got that quote but before he was made part of Irish lore their was a man named Medgar Evers and his quote "no need to hate 90% of the people you hate don't care the other 10% have no idea you do" I'm positively sure were in that 90% that don't care about 'YOU'
OH I'm sorry "YOU DEFINITELY NOW WERE I FALL ON THAT SPECTRUM"
I would love to see Notre Lame play a BIG TEN schedule just once. 1-11 is the first stat that comes to mind.
@StepenofTroy:
Let's see, since I did have a good education and can do the math....Jimmy Clausen was born in 1987 and the Irish 11-0 streak went through 1993, so hmm I would have to say yes, Clausen was alive then. Interesting thing about Clausen is that SC's own golden boy Pat Haden thinks he's the best QB in the country.
As for the contraception crack, that was out of bounds I'll admit, but oh so easy when someone rolls out that double trojan reference. I find it entertaining that you wear that law degree on your sleeve better than Star "I am a Lawyer" Jones. She was probably your classmate. Who isn't an F'ing lawyer these days? I could throw a stick and hit 3 of them in my own house. So what?
I will admit that you have raised the level of discourse here. I don't believe I've ever seen someone post the word temerity here before. You're still a doucher though who should go back to some SC board. What is the lifespan of your particular type of larvae anyway?
robertg...crying about the calls is all about excuses. At no point in the entire game did ND have a lead. Your O-Line had a crap beat out of it...your receivers were going against second string DBs...and you still couldn't get it done. ND has gotten their share of 'calls' this year (think Washington game). So please quit making excuses. Stop being a ND team hack and man up You lost because on Saturday because Pitt was the superior team.
PS..please keep Weis..the rest of the nation enjoys you paying tens of millions to a complete fraud.
and we plunge ourselves into even farther depths of... WHAT? ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Topline, it's time to join a conference (Big East or Big 10) and utilize Charlie in his most successful role - recruiting, football operations, and possibly conference negotiations (?title - Asst AD, VP of footbal OPS, ?). Take the next year, with HC Charlie's participation, to identify & secure our next head coach (hopefully a proven college coach) and make the transition as seamless as possible. Perhaps use Charlie as Offensive Advisor in the new role.
The days of being an "Independent" are far gone. What benefit is ND getting by being independent - football wise and more importantly for all aspects of the university? There would be benefits to ND by being in a conference far beyond football - academic interaction, federal grants, etc. Everything said above regarding conference biased officiating, impact of big $$$ bowl games, etc. would be less impactful to the Irish with conference affiliation - as others have already posted.
What other elite program is "Independent"? Let's get real and get ourselves in synch with college ball in the new century.
ND detractors will claim that promoting Charlie would be the "Peter Principle" at it's worst. I say "Bite me" in reply. Charlie has done a great job of taking the program from what he inherited from Willingham to the talent level and explosive offensive that we enjoy. Let's have him do what he does best; and bring in a new head coach to take the program to the next level. Happens in the corporate world all the time.
I'm not football smart enough to know what's NOT working...but it's fairly obvious something just isn't.
Let's get real and utilize people where their strengths tell us. In part that's how any entity goes from "Good to Great".
mrrandolph: I think you expressed two great ideas: warning for celebration or at most 5 yards on the kick-off, and review of certain personal fouls to stop penalizing the 2nd person. Good job.
I think they should review ALL unsportsmanlike conduct calls - it's absurd to penalize a team because a lineman who gets a sack gets excited about it. Bearing in mind that these men are trying their hardest to knock the snot out of each other, that they're not being paid, and that 95% of them won't go pro, it's lunacy to tell them they shouldn't enjoy what they do.
It's like in Apocalypse Now, when Kurtz says, re: Vietnam war, "we train young men to drop fire on people, but we won't let them write the word 'f*ck' on their areoplanes, because it's 'obscene.' Or like when Thomas Jefferson was giving a tour of Monticello to a group of ladies, and one of them protested about the cruelty of seeing a slave baby being sold away from its mother: "Madam, to protest the effect of slavery while condoning the practice in general is like choking on a gnat while swallowing a camel."
Finally, to those who tell me that I have no life because I'm here commenting on this board, I simply say, what does it say about YOU that you're here, then? At least I'M not whining and stamping my foot, like you are...
Art: My question about whether Clausen was alive was facetious (oops, did I raise the level of discourse again?); I was making the point that you boys haven't won in a while. I know Clausen is not a 7-year-old; he merely behaves like one when things don't go his way. Sorry for the confusion.
Oh, and as for raising the discourse, I'm sorry for that, too. It was never my intention. I just wanted to know why the hell Charlie Weis gets the royal treatment. He's never been a head coach, and the Patriot offense was never any good when he was there. They won because of Bill-the-sweatshirt-wearer (seriously, he looks like he lives in a bus terminal and just woke up 30 mins prior to game time), because of defense, because it snows there, and because of Adam V's clutch field goals. Yet Charlie Weis waddles into town and gets a multi-year contract half a year into his tenure, with Ty's players. Lunacy.
I've got to stand up for my newest favorite guy these days! If you pay any attention to what robertg has wrote you will see that the ND-Pitt game is only the most recent of events to have occurred with the game being decided by the officials. Go ahead do some of your own research, it's all there. I will also admit when I first found this site and read all the things he was writing about, "I" too thought he was a bit of a blow hard, but I gave him the benefit of a doubt and researched a bit myself! I'm thrilled to find that he is dead on!!! (not just for Notre Dame) FOR ALL OF COLLEGE FOOTBALL this can only result in good things!!!!!!!!!!
Mike Ford: Tell me, do they teach anything at ND? We already learned they don't teach logic. But basic spelling? Grammar? You don't know the difference between "were" and "where." Oh, and CAPSLOCK isn't as persuasive as you think it is. But nice try bringing Medgar Evers into it.
@StephenofTroy:
I can recognize facetiousness, can you recognize sarcasm? I actually think Charlie can't scheme like he did with the Pats because nobody's taping the opponent's defensive signal calls on the other side line, but that's another story altogether. I wanted him out of town after the Syracuse debacle last year. Now losing to Navy again is inexcusable. So we actually agree on something? Maybe they get the right coach this time and I will be on an SC chat in a few years using all my big lawyer words.
Listen, that's all I have in me tonight, it's been fun....you're a pisser.
You got me their didn't you, I'm not sure but I think I missed that day in class!! USC must not have taught you that some of the reel hard words to spell are on your keyboard, HUH? CAPSLOCK OR IS IT CAPS LOCK I'm having a reel hard time with my spell check. But thanks anyway! You sound like a reel stand up guy?
Man, some of you dudes act like a bunch of morons on these boards ... how about some of you guys grow up, or just shut up.
Bottom line, the past two games have been a major disappointment, and I hope for the players that they can pull out a win over the next two games.
As far as Weis, I don't know what the right answer is. I'd love to know who the AD has on his list as far as potential coaches go, if he were to decide to go that route.
I guess we'll all have to wait and see...
v/r,
Jonathan
To: Troy lawyer douche
Aren't there enough sand boxes in trojan land. You found this little corner in ND football to flame and be a complete douche. I guess that keen lawyer mind discerned there were no moderators to kick your sleazy act and double condom pedigree back to trojan land aka home of the real raider fans.
Feel free to reply because I guarantee it won't be read. Your not worth another word.
Mike, Mike, Mike... It's "there" not "their." I wouldn't say anything ordinarily, but you've been petulant. And you goofed that one up several times in separate posts, leading one to believe the error was not merely a typo. And it's "reel" hard for me to believe that you went to ND, or any college. So I apologize for slurring the Irish by intimating that they didn't teach you properly. You might want to ask robertg to sue whoever gave you your GED. You wuz robbed.
Peter, your decision to copy off of Mike Ford in grammar class was unfortunate. Don't use words like "discerned" if you don't know the difference between "your" and "you're."
And if you think I believe that you're not reading this post, you're even dumber than you've shown us thus far.
Never said I went to ND! But anyhow just wanted to thank you for wanting to challenge my intellect, but I'm not really up to it tonight. By the way, you really do sound very intelligent and I wish I was as smarter as you!! YOU FUNNY GUY, FUNNY FUNNY FUNNY
REALLY???? Is this necessary? You must be really bored or just a egomaniac!! MOVE ON DUDE, NOBODY wants to read your BS!!!!!!!!!!
The NCAA needs to assign officials directly and eliminate the biased drivel we've been subjected to the last several seasons by the "take care of their own" conferences. These tools wouldn't know what a rule book looked like if it came up and kicked them in the nether regions.
Is it just me? Or does it seem like ND players are losing their helmets a lot this year?
And while speaking of helmets, what is with all the flaked off paint? I know it is a tradition to paint the helmets every week with paint that contains some real gold, but by the end of the game, they hardly look like golden domes. Did you see Pitts helmets? Basically the same color -- and no grey at the end of the game! Clear plastic over gold plastic is the way to go!
Yes, the "official review" of the non-fumble was devastating, but the Irish should never have let it get to the point where it was.
The bone-head penalties have been increasing, and THAT is a symptom of a POORLY COACHED team.
As usual, Charlies' play calling was horrible, and he was out-coached in every aspect of the game.
In addition, I can't believe that Notre Dame can't recruit a decent punter.
Furthermore, to say that it is a vocal minority looking for Charlie to be let go, all I can say is that every alumnus and ND fan that I know, can't wait for Charlie to exit.
I don't think anyone at the ND decision making level can believe that THIS is what they wanted, when they gave Charlie a 10 year contract.
ND has an extremely talented quarterback, great receivers, and good running backs. College teams with much less talent are doing far better than ND.
It's the administrations turn to do what they have to do.
Notre Dame has 16 million reasons why CW will not get his walking papers...that's the amount of money they would have to pay him for his six remaining years.
I too find it unbelievable that anyone would get a ten year contract..much less someone with no prior head coaching experience.
The zingers back and forth are too funny. I went to Navy, so am actually cheering for Weis to stay on.. and on... and on... If Navy can consistently win 2 of 3, we'll even the series around year 2070!!! It only requires another ~60 years of Weis, but hey, if Penn State can do it...
I've been reading this board for awhile now and everybody's making good comments (even the haters unfortunately). I just wonder how this all backfired so miserably. 5 yrs. ago everybody's man pussy was wet with the anticipation of Weis coming in. He was a domer, a bright guy and had all those rings. He had to interrupt his recruiting to go back to the NFL and prepare for the Super Bowl for Christ sakes. He was the second coming. He was THE guy the university thought they needed in the wake of the Tarnished Dome which only became more so with the Willingham firing and the subsequent blunder with O'Leary. Then he gets on the job full time and goes 9-3 with Ty's team and that sealed the deal. We had to bottle up this genie before he went on to make magic somewhere else. In comes Kevin White and makes a ridiculous contract extension that now must be paid for years to come. Funny thing is I think we're still paying Willingham aren't we? In any event, I think they'll make a movie about this in the future called The Kevin White Experiment. It will definitely be in the Sci-Fi section because nobody will believe it actually happened. ND is at a true crossroads now and this hiring might be do or die for the future of the program. One name I haven't heard a lot about is Harbaugh. Is he available? Does anyone think he would come to SB? At least he's learned how to beat USC.
Ouch, I just looked at the series record--much worse than I thought. At 2 of 3, We need Weis to keep his job for another 180 or so odd years and Navy will assume the series lead. Perhaps as an alternative, ND can just ensure Weis picks his successor.
One thing that is repeatedly brought up is ND's easy schedule, but that's not necessarily true. Through yesterday's games ND opponents had a W/L record of 68-55. Florida's opponents had a W/L record of 63-59. Florida also plays a 1-AA school (Charleston Southern). ND's schedule is no worse off than the team ranked number 1 and a media darling.
I'm exhausted being a Notre Dame fan (48 years). I, too, wonder if Weis is the right man for the job.
But one thing for sure is this: I'm tired of the soap opera that ND football has become. I'm actually thinking tonight that ND should stick it out with Weis. Enough with sending a message to future coaching prospects that ND will dump you if you don't win within five years. Enough with trying to correct the mistakes Kevin White made throughout his AD career with the football program (ND is great in other sports, thanks to White, but football is not one of them).
ND should live up to their commitment with Weis and let him coach through his contract. If it doesn't work, then he's gone and ND will have gained some respectability with the coaching profession and attract the right person for the job.
I truly don't think we can put up with Charlie any longer. If you watched the Pitt game closely, you saw the situation in the 4th Q where Weis and Clausen appeared to be confused as to the play/personnel package/whatever and this is just unacceptable. You know you're going to have your hands full with Pitt, you've played so many nail-biters into the 4th Q this year and you're still having confusion on the sidelines, poor clock mgmt issues, etc. I think he has to go and I think if the AD hasn't already started making offers, he's crazy.
I like you, Keith, but the "vocal minority" nonsense is just that--nonsense. An unoffical poll in the Observer (and hence, likely nearly all ND students) comes in at nearly 90% that want Charlie gone either yesterday or at the end of the season--including over 40% that wanted him gone already or after the next (i.e., Pitt) loss. This doesn't touch the alums that personally remember ND greatness. Easily, most fans want him gone, and the "devil that you know vs. the devil that you don't" argument just doesn't fly anymore. I have defended Charlie with my teeth for four seasons. No more.
The "ofTroy" character is more than caustic, but I have to admit he scores points. Why? Because of the simple fact that a coach's success is determined by his winning percentage over the course of time. Weis is a poor college coach. All the talk about replays and refs sounds pretty tinny when we barely score in 3 quarters. Charlie has no one to blame for his predicament but himself. What was it he said about excuses? There's a double edge to that sword, and the backswing is catching him. He has to go.
1. you are correct, notre dame law professor g. robert blakely was primarily responsible for drafting both the criminal and civil rico acts and we remain eternally greatful to him for doing so and for providing expert witness testimony which was crucial to overcoming the desires of some us district court judges to eviscerate the civil rico statute.
2. i personally briefed, argued, and won the key 9th circiut case that saved the civil rico statute from that evisceration and my associates and i have briefed, argued, and won virtually every key case that made the civil rico act such a deadly tool for plaintiffs.
3. professor blakely is a fine honest man. if you ask him how many civil rico cases he hass actually tried, he will tell you. if you ask him what he knows about college football officiating and the business of college football and college sports, he will tell you the truth, which is bupkis.
4. the civil rico statute is just one of very many tools that we will use to destroy crooked college sports enterprises and every person and entity associated with those con operations, whether or not charlie and his staff remain at notre dame.
5. we can assure everyone that, if charlie and his staff leave notre dame, notre dame football as we know it will die a certain death.
6. with tyrone, tyrone already had an offer in writing from washington when some naieve people at notre dame allowed themselves to be terrorized into firing tyrone in that disgraceful manner when tyrone was perfectly willing to resign. that decision cost notre dame many millions in salary paid to tyrone while he was coaching at washington and created an atmosphere of distrust of notre dame football among recruits and their families all over the us,with which charlie and his staff still have to contend today.
7. if charlie and his staff do get disgusted and leave notre dame or if they do not get the required vote of confidence immediately from jack swarbrick and those who now have decision making powers in football matters at notre dame, notre dame will very quickly be reduced to playing football in the ivy league.
8. unlike tyrone and his staff, charlie and his staff are the perfect fit for notre dame and only the current corrupt officiating, rules enforcement, and rankings systems prevent the fruits of their labors from being seen on the playing fields.
9. notre dame is the last great independent in college football and a key threat to crooked college sports enterprises.
10. it is for that reason that the proprietors of crooked college sports enterprises have spent untold billions trying to bring down charlie and his staff and notre dame football.
GO IRISH!!!
keith,
1. we congratulate you and your staff on the new number of posts all time record set for nd central by your article.
2. if anyone takes a look at the south bend tribune, he or she will find long time nd shill eric hansen's latest hate mongering diatribe against charlie weis and his staff and notre dame's student athletes.
3. remember that hansen and his associates are very well paid by notyre dame's opponents on the recruiting trails for the fraudulent articles that they write and post online.
4. what do hansen and his shill associates know about college football or officiating? bupkis.
5. does anyone with decision making power about notre dame football trust eric hansen or his associates at the south bend tribuine and at other media outlets enough to give them any real information? no way.
6. true, eric hansen and his associates did play a role in the vicious manner in which tyrone was fired by some very naieve people at notre dame who then had decision making power about notre dame football. in doing so, they cost notre dame millions in completely unnecessary contract payments to tyrone and crediblity on the recruiting trails.
7. since then, all such decision making power has been put in the hands of notre dame graduates who have had great success at notre dame as student athletes also playing football, in the nfl, and in their personal and business lives.
8. when hansen gets to his suggestions about replacements for charlie weis, hansen can mention only one name, stanford coach jim harbaugh, who has zero interest in coaching at notre dame and who, this season, for the 1st time since 2001 will be taking stanford to some post season bowl game of some type, but not to any bcs bowl.
9. harbaugh's success this season was made possible by new pac 10 commisioner larry scott taking personal control over pac 10 officiating after scott became outraged at the blatant thefts of wins for usc over notre dame and oregon state by pac 10 crews.
10. sure, stanford is an excellent school and does field teams composed of real student athletes and talented student athletes.
11. could harbaugh's stanford team beat notre dame's 2009 team in an honestly officiated game unless notre dame's student athletes had been beaten down by dishonest officiating crews and some of their own fans? extremely unlikely.
12. harbaugh tried such a trick in 2007 and still failed to win, with a big east game crew and a pac 10 tech review crew. in fact, the videos of the key plays in 2 tds stolen from nd by the officials at that 2007 stanford game are still available for viewing at und.com under greatest plays of the charlie weis era.
13. at the 2008 notre dame/ stanford game at notre dame, harbaugh again sought and obtained the assistance of a dishonest pac 10 game crew and a dishonest big east tech review crew to help stanford to win, only to fail yet again.
14. are there any willing and qualified candidates foir the notre dame headf coasching job if charlie and his staff leaves? no.
15. the job simply does not pay enough for anyone but charlie and his staff and their family have put up with the vicious garbage from hansen and his associates which comes along with the head coaching job at notre dame.
16. after all, with every coaching change at notre dame,hansen and certain other proprietors of so called notre dame fan sites who make fortunes every time their is a coaching change at notre dame by writing books which bthey shill to unsuspecting notre dame fans and vilifying the outgoing coach and praising the new one, until they are ready to turn on the new coach and his staff.
17. during 2007 and 2008, hansen actually wrote articles viciously attacking charlie's young son.
18. during the 2008 season when notre dame visited pete carroll and usc at the masloeum , hansen and his associates spent all of their time in los angeles with one of their closest buddies, pete carroll of usc, and writing articles, some of which were posted right here at nd central, guaranteeing that they would get charlie and his staff fired in 2007 and again in 2008.
19. we all know what happened. charlie and his staff are still at notre dame.
20. however, hesitation by jack swarbrick and notre dame in announcing poublily that charlie and his stasff would be back and raising the issues of of the current corrupt officiating, rules enforcement and rankings systems did succeed, along with their fraudulent articles written and posted on the internet by in driving away from notre dame several key recruits who otherwise would have chosen notre dame. hansen and his ssociates were handsomely rewarded.
21. we once considered purchasing the south bend tribune just to have the pleasure of firing hansen and his associates in person.
22. however, after looking at the balance sheets of the south bend tribune and its parent company, we decided that it would be much better just to allow them to drive themselves into the bankruptcies which have become inevitable for them all.
23. during the 2008 season, before keith and his staff replaced the idiots who used to run nd central, eric hansen had the gall to have his good buddies pete carroll and pat haden appear at nd central to give recruiting pitches for usc and to bash charlie and his staff and notre dame.
24. yes, we did downloasd all of those videos.
GO IRISH!!!
If you got JESUS CHRIST as your head coach, you would STILL be 1-9 against ranked teams. I cant believe you idiots can even talk National Championships with a record of 1-9 against ranked teams. Did I mention your 1-9 against ranked teams? The one ranked team you beat got slaughtered by the same team that will beat you this week. Looks like you guys will alwyas be a third tier team, weak schedule, huge following. Huge following does not a good team make. If you think Urban Myer, or any other SEC coach would come to ND, you are retarted. No pro coach would set foot in losersville either.
You're correct david86: Over 60 offensive plays in a ballgame and the outcome hinges on a fumble/incomplete pass overturned replay. Score one TD in the first half or hold Pitt w/o a TD & you get the win.
Not only is he correct that it is a vocal minority, it is clear that the vocal minority are 'closet ND haters' trying to undermine the progress the football program is making!
Take it from me, you guys don't have a prayer.....
When are you ND fans and followers going to realize that Notre Dame has sucked ever since Charlie Weis got there? How often do they have to lose before you realize the problem is Charlie Weis? And what "progress" has ND made? They suck and it's sad that every game they play you expect them to lose...it's just sad. Get a new coach.
1. Why are officiating crews affiliated with any conference and not NCAA officials - evolution over time? Have you seen any action, signs, possibilities of having all college officials report to the NCAA? Not just for the benefit of ND, but for all college athletes (eg. SEC stories of officiating incompetence, dishonesty?).
2. What would you think of Charlie as Asst AD, VP of football OPS (recruiting, personnel management, liaison to conferences, etc), in one year down the road? This would focus his efforts upon his strenghts (esp. recruiting). He could actively participate in securing his replacement for HC and making the transition seamless. I assert that this would be the best way to address your point # 14. I'm not sure that in today's environment, any one person is reasonably equipped to do all that is expected as Head Coach of an elite program - at least not without major "bending" of the rules.
3. Do you see any benefit for ND remaining "Independent" vs joining the Big East or the Big 10? With either conference we'd play 8 conference games + USC + Navy + two other (rotating ACC, SEC, etc) to complement our recruiting efforts in targeted geographies. Esp. with the Big East, I believe that we have the leverage to maintain our NBC contract as a "hands off" part of the deal. My discussions with friends lead me to believe conference affiliation brings many benefits to the university beyond football - access to federal grants, faculty "exchange" arrangements, academic research collaboration, etc.
Keep up the good work.
Jan, ND'69
First things first. I am the biggest ND Fan out there, and i will always root and cheer on the beloved IRISH. That being said, At the beginning of the year, My friends all asked me what i thought about Charlie Weis. The thing i said was that this year was the year that would tell all. His make it or break it year with me. He has since broken any confidence that i had with him. If you look at these games, there is no reason why ND is not undefeated. We really should be 10-0. Instead we are 6-4 and looking too much like last year. We need to bring in a guy that not only understands Notre Dame, but can have these kids excited to play anyone. NAVY, NEVADA, Washington ST., excited to play anyone. I say bring in GRUDEN. Fir Charlie, and bring in a proven winner. A proven Head coach. Charlie you do not know how to use your personnell. Against NAVY, you took out a running back in Theo riddick that was tearing up the navy team. Against Pitt, you took out a back that was tearing up a pitt team. You wait too long to do waht we do best, and the defense does not even play until fourth quarter. We need 60 minutes of football, not 15. So this is finally my call to fire Weis, and it could not come at a better time.
The new head coach should talk Jimmy into staying, "Jimmy, you should have won the heisman this year, you should have been contending fo a national chanpion ship. You do not want your stamp on ND to stop where it is, You do want the credit for bringing the dome back to Golden Standards. Come back and we will do both."
BRING ON GRUDEN, GRUDEN, GRUDEN, GRUDEN, BYE-BYE CHARLIE
Pffttt... Sorry folks, those of you who want to whine about the officiating need to stop. If you have put yourself in the position to be impacted by a call or two going against you, then you don't deserve to win anyway. You have had star recruiting classes for five straight years now and there are no excuses. Jabba the Weis is a lousy college football coach - plain and simple. I just laugh at those who continue to insist that he be given more time. Personally, I'd love for you to keep his fat butt around for many years to come. It makes for great comedic reading every weekend.
The clock only stops in the last 2 minutes of each half when you go out of bounds. Any time before the 2 minutes a ball carrier goes out of bounds the clock stops until the ball is spotted and the ref signals to restart the clock. I think that went into effect in '08'.
Can we all say amen! Arizona Buckeye is spot on.
Brad seems a bit vitriolic. That much passion against Notre Dame reeks of issues. That much negativity surely means that you have never set foot on Notre Dame's campus and probably never got into college... Otherwise why all the hate...
To all of you who claim that ND was racist for firing Ty Willingham, I have two points to make.
1. Could you please tell me the name of your school's black head football coach?
2. The last I cheked, Ty Willingham is available for his next head coaching position. Do you want him hired as the head coach at your school?
Yeah...that's what I thought.
In regards to conference affiliations for officials, that has always been a crock. Officials have bias towards schools in their conferences, and as we've seen all year in the SEC, schools that have a chance to get to the BCS Championship game will get virtually every questionable call against a lesser conference opponent. The NCAA should have their officials represent four or six specific regions of the country (to save travel costs) and get rid of conference affiliations for officials.
To Stephen of Troy: I was wondering, does everyone with the "Surgeons" get the same condo deal as Reggie Bush these days? Just curious..
FIGHT ON!!
BillfromOhio: Thanks for the clock clarification. I had just assumed that the officials had determined the runner's forward progress had been stopped before he went out of bounds. But now that I understand that, a couple of other plays I've seen in other games involving other teams makes sense. Appreciate it.
Avon Domer: The onus isn't on us to hire Ty. The onus is on ND to explain why they fired Ty but keep Charlie, with the same record. Especially considering they violated their own precedent by firing him before he had a chance to implement his own program with his own recruited players.
And if the best you can do is whine about some nonsense involving Reggie Bush, all I need to do is laugh at you for being pathetic. So many of you Irish fans are pathetic whiners. I'm curious what you thought of his 6 yard leap into the endzone for the 9-0 Saints. Are there any ND running backs in the NFL? Poor Armando Allen. If only Charlie knew how to coach, maybe he would have been given a chance to show what he can do.
There are two Irish Runners in the NFL right now:
Julius Jones - Sea
Ryan Grant-GB
But, neither Ty or Charlie recruited them.
Darius Walker might be on a practice squad somewhere.
I hate doing this, but this is as about as fine a quote from an ND man as you will get about how this piss poor season has gone.
"I am ashamed to acknowledge that I viewed Notre Dame football at the beginning of 2009 the same way the gullible ones perceived Ali in 1980. Historical trends or patterns that even I wrote about demonstrated that the Charlie Weis era was destined to fail, but I believed the power of Notre Dame would get them to at least 10-2 in 2009. A 9-3 mark would not be good enough, and 8-4 bordered on malpractice." Lou somogyi
We all agree: Charlie has over stayed his welcome. I respect Mr. Somogyi, and I hope the AD will also.
No hate here!! I just hate your attitude. I know ND is a great college, but your football team will never win another national championship no matter who your coach is!! I graduated from Emory University in Atlanta and I am a GaTech fan. We wont ever win one either, so I feel you pain. You guys DONT PLAY ANYBODY and you get ranked??? I don't get it and I am sick of the media giving your 3rd rate team special coverage.
Stephen,
Man, I go to bed because it's late, get up and work to 2:00 PM, check the blogs and you're still at it. You did make a comment that makes my point perfectly. I do think that Tate is great. Clausen, Floyd and the tight end are also great. The reason their talent isn't exploited more is because of their inept coach, Charlie the Tuna.
Can Charlie the Tuna.
Stanford didn't just beat you, they stripped you of your manhood on your home turf. Did Pete mention to his defense that tackling is allow in football or did they all cry "mommy" when Toby Gerhart was handed the football. You got beat by a group of players you didn't even offer scholarships to. You lost players to the NFL and coachs your a storied program you don't rebuild you reload.
SOT: If you did your homework before spouting off you would know that Ty wanted in his ND contract a review after three years to see if both parties wanted to continue their relationship. ND agreed to that and chose not to continue. BTW: I never see ND fans telling USC what to do with their football program, so who are you to tell us anything? I said it before and I'll say it again, all schools who have not yet hired a black head football coach have no right to say anything to ND in regards to Ty. Let me ask you this: Would you continue to employ a head football coach who spent oddles of time during limited recruiting periods on the school golf course? That's what ND had to put up with from Ty. Let's be honest here, you have no interest at all in race relations, you just wanted us to keep Ty because you knew you'd continue to kill us with him running our program. You are so transparent it's pathetic. You call ND racist when ND has students from all 50 states and more than 100 countries worldwide. Oh yeah...ND is a racist institution all right.
Nonsense involving Reggie Bush? I believe in that as much as I believe in the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and that USC comes within 40 points of ND's football team graduation rate since 1962 of 98.69%.
Irish running backs in the NFL: Just off the top of my head I believe Darius Walker is with Denver, Ryan Grant is with Green Bay and Julius Jones is with Seattle.
One more thing: I've been to at least a half dozen ND/USC games in in South Bend and I've always treated USC fans with respect, and they've always been great to be around. The only time I ever go after USC is when I see what I see from the likes of you.
How many coaches has ND gone thru since Lou Holtz? Here's a news flash from an ND alum. Changing the coaches isn't the answer. Notre Dame will never again be a top 10 football team until it is once again able to recruit and develop the cream of the crop offensive & defensive linemen. ND football tradition is going the way of the manufacturing sector in this country, a colorful part of the past. Look at the number of offensive & defensive lineman starting in the NFL from the consistent top 10 programs and compare that to what ND is putting out. Sorry but ND linemen on both sides of the ball are smart, big, and slow. ND football leadership needs to admit to itself that it is not recruiting the best for the trenches and figure out why. If and when that happens, then and only then, will ND football return to glory and wake up the echoes, being able to take control of big games and win.
You're so right.
Look how the Pitt program has turned around. The other night they said they used 16 scholarships their first two years on the defensive line. Sounds good to me.
Stephen of Troy,
1) Actually, the Irish are 42-34-5 against your Men of Troy, including 13 wins out of the last 21 games.
2) Moreover, some of the worst homejobs in NCAA history have occurred in the LA Coliseum, not the least being the Charles White fumble on the 2, called the winning TD. (Pictures can be found online.)
3) Ty was fired because he was clearly in over his head; wasn't able to articulate what was happening and why; and was destined to do to ND what he eventually did to Washington (0-12). He actually may have been hired in the first place because of non-football considerations.
Ron
You sir, are an idiot. Keep your stupid political idea's to yourself. This forum is about Notre Dame football. Not your child molester moronic politcal tendencies. Or, maybe, you should call Rome to bitch about the cover-up of rapist/child molester men of god.
I was at the Pitt game. Notre Dame was unprepared, un-motivated, and beaten by a average football team, with a below average coach.
What's that saying...even a blind squirrel...Which makes this loss all the more horrible.
Folks, I love Notre Dame. However reality has to set in sometime. We have stunk for years. Maybe, just maybe it's not Weis, or Tyrone, or Bob. Maybe it's the administration, the decision makers, and the big money alum. If so, well then they suck.
I think a blue collar attitude needs to return to SB. When five star recruits meant nothing, when post high school all-american games did not exist. When winning on the field was it's own reward.
I am from Steubenville, Ohio. As a child everyone loved the Irish.
A town of steel workers, and blue collar folk. A town, and a nation of subway-alum's. Where has that all gone?
It's the money. It's the bullshit. It's the 24/7 sports talk, and crap that these dolt's vomit out each and every day that is killing college football.
I just wish that those at ND would recognize the sub-alum's, are the one's who love the Irish, and have been with them through thick, and thin. They are the ones who deserve better, as do the players. The longer this goes on, the more difficult it is to hold on to the legacy of ND Football.
Find the right man.
troy u r the biggest jerk on here. comparing what u c on tv with what is on here is rediculous.shows what kind of person u really r. STUPID. GO IRISH
1. while charlie did call off his usual sunday press conference on sunday, anyone can watch charlie and jack nolan's usual wrapup of the notre dame/pitt game right now at und.com, including a closeup of the phantom fumble by jimmy clausen created by the big east tech review crew, each of whom will be receiving visits at their homes this week from our process servers bearing lawsuits.both the tech review and game officials were warned of the consequences of dishonest officiating and they did so throughout the notre dame/pitt game anyway. by the way, the pitt punter was no knocked down by a notre dame player at all, but by one of his own pitt teammates. the game officials called a 15 yard personal foul against notre dame anyway and gave pitt thje 1st of many free free points, in addition to taking many points away from notre dame.
2. we are informed that charlie spent some time on sunday with his family and with jack swarbrick and the other people at notre dame who now have all decision making powers over football matters and that charlie and his staff and notre dame's student athletes will be back next season and for the forseeable future, thus exposing eric hansen and the other media shills as the con artists that they are and always have been for the 3rd straight season.
3. notre dame is simply not going to get into the sewers with the football factories and we are immensely proud of notre dame.
4. the corrupt officiating, rules enforcement, and rankings systems will not be around next season, nor will any of the persons or entities connected with those con operations, including every single predator coach who runs a football factory operation.
5. pete carroll will be the 1st of many to go down in the civil courts.
6. next season, with honest high tech officiating, rules enforcement, and rankings systems in place, the entire nation will get to see on the playing fields exactly how outstanding charlie and his staff and notre dame real student athletes actually have been all along.
GO IRISH!!!
hey bud, I'm also from close to Steubenville, good to hear from someone close to home on here!!
mrrandolph: Thanks for supplying the info re: Irish RB's in the NFL. I knew about Julius Jones (I like him and his brother and consider them humble, talented, hard working players - just what I like to see). I forgot about Ryan Grant. Thanks for letting me know. My question, however, was facetious and designed to shut up the whiner who tried to throw in gibberish about Reggie Bush getting some sort of favor. I'm sure he thinks Brady Quinn paid full value for everything he ever got from Irish alums. Anyway, thanks, man. I return civility where I receive civility, and I show no mercy to idiots who show that they deserve none.
bill poloha: Sorry, I'm a bit slow. But it seems to me that you're calling me stupid. And yet, you don't know that there's no "e" in the word "ridiculous." Um, yeah. Good luck with that. 0 and 8. Scoreboard, in other words.
Hey (most-of-you) people....Time to go to your naughty chairs and take a time out. And while there, write the words "civil discourse" one hundred times. And if you still don't understand this most basic of civilized comments, stay on that chair and continue writing until you do. Please, and thank you.
Hey, robertg, aka nutso NotreDameNostradamus: You keep making predictions about what's going to happen, what's going to change, and who (Pete Carroll) is going to go down in the civil courts. Care to tell us WHEN any of these things will happen? I'm going on record here: those things will happen when Joe Montana plays QB for Notre Dame again. You should be at a comedy club. You're worth the two drink minimum.
Avon Domer: You're full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. The notion that somehow I wanted Ty to stay so we could keep beating you? Ummm...no. As I recall, we beat you 38-0 and 30-3 with Charlie Weis at the helm. And the 38-0 game was the one where Weis grew the grass long at South Bend to try to take away our superior speed. THAT is pathetic. How the Irish players could take the field, knowing that their coach didn't think they could compete fair and square is beyond me. What would the score have been if he had allowed the groundskeeper to do his job?
Bottom line, the onus is on ND's AD to explain why Weis gets to stay while Willingham (and Davie) had to go. It is not on us (or anyone) to hire a black coach. Pete Carroll has the best winning percentage of any active FBS coach. And he and his players have fun. Especially when they come to South Bend. Can't wait till we play you again next year.
And so what if you don't have the guts or the intellect to go to a USC board and try your best to come up with something to say? That doesn't mean I can't post here. *covering my eyes with my fingers* "I don't see you, so you can't see me!" What a joke!
r u for real; or is this just a bunch of BS?
Hey, the game the grass was a little long was in 2005 and considered a very good game by both teams (minus the Bush-push)! The 38-0 game was 2 yrs later 2007 and if I recall correctly, we were definitely not in a situation by the time USC rolled into town that would have called for grass growing techniques to slow down the opponent. I'm not sure what Petey pays the officials but I'm positive it's a lot more than what ND pays it's groundskeepers !! P.S. (your such a good speller)
I see the USC gadfly is still hovering about. What's that old saying about insanity? You keep trying the same thing while expecting a different outcome. Stephen, you keep making the same arguments over and over.....for like 48 hours now. Your psychosis is approaching that of robertg. Just swallow the pill under your tongue and get some sleep. Chief and McMurtry will make sure you get back to the laptop in the dayroom tomorrow. Was firing Ty racially motivated? Is there an 'e' in ridiculous? Glad you're on here to keep these pressing issues in the forefront of our discussion. Is this really what you do for fun? No Mrs. Stephen of Troy? No hobbies? Tragic. Oh, I almost forgot, you're still a douche.
I really don't understand why MSNBC has a ND Central site.
What's the big deal about ND ?? They should be consistently be ranked in the top ten every year, based upon their recruits.
Maybe they get bit by the overrated bug of their institution.
jamey, MSNBC has to have an ND Central site or it will be implicitly admitting that it made a huge mistake by paying all that money to ND in the first place.
Sort of the same way ND had to pay Weis all that money or else admit it made a huge mistake by firing Willingham/Davie/Holtz.
"Maybe they get bit by the overrated bug..." Yes, and MAYBE Tim Tebow is a decent college football player. Hello, understatement of the year.
Art: you've moved from talking about my father to talking about my significant other. Gee, and just when I was starting to feel a little pity for you Tarnished Domers. Like Huckabee said, if you're not catching flak, you're not over the target. You know my points are valid. And you admitted I raised the discourse. Get back to watching your VCR footage of the days when ND had good coaches and watchable games.
"Irish defense just can't force turnovers"
Are you fing kidding me? Talk about the understatement of the century. How bout they don't know how to tackle? Did you notice the back up half back go 60 and a bunch of sissy would be tacklers falling off him? HEllo Keith!! Weis in 5 years hasn't been able to put a half ass defense or running game together. NDs D is statistically near the bottom in every defensive category genius. And don't you dare blame these kids or the refs for this fat momo's shortcomings. If it weren't for 2 Heisman performances all year and the offensive talents of Clauson and tate carrying the fat man all year, he'd be looking at 3-9 again! 2 losses to Navy at home in a row for the first time in almost 1/2 a century! This guy will go down in ND infamy understand? He can't coach his way out of a paper bag. strictly a qb coach period!
@SOT:
NBC made a very shrewd investment in ND football. Their broadcasts are always among the most highly watched games each weekend, whether we suck or succeed. Notre Dame has a huge and intensely loyal fan base and the program appeals to many different groups on a national level. It appeals to ND alum, which are scattered around the planet, Catholics, those of Irish lineage, those who appreciate the heritage of the program, and so on. Those people can be found in Cali or Kansas, Maine or Miami......it is a national following. SC is a very well-respected school but a regional school. Let's face it, if you live in Missouri and you're admitted to Harvard and SC, where you going to go? Not SC. Besides, the Trojans have to compete in their own market with UCLA and others, further splintering their fan base and popular appeal. Other than SC alum and some WASPs from SoCal, what groups follow SC football? People who like scarlet and gold in their wardrobe? Lovers of Greek mythology? NBC would never have "Trojan Football Saturday" or some such program because it just wouldn't pay. Could USC go to the Alamodome and draw the kind of crowd that ND did to play WSU? I really don't think so. Even if they did, it would never be broadcast to a national audience. The TV contract is all about the money for sure, but it remains the envy of all programs that are regional in scope. And I'm not trying to offend you...it's the same as some guy in Delaware who would have no allegiance to Ohio State, let's say, based on the same rationale. The religious tie-in, the ethnic tie-in and other factors combine to make ND football something very unique. SC will never have that. EVER. Period. I know it's sometimes difficult to deal with and I feel for you but when the Trojans did play WSU, I'm sure you were able to get the game on some ESPN Gameplan or streaming webcast, right? Lastly, is there some significant other in your life? I didn't mean to poke fun.....would be kind of funny if her name was Helen by the way.
Art: Yes, I have a significant other. She's an even more rabid SC fan than I am, even though she didn't attend USC. Shocking to you, I'm sure. And she's much less polite to SC's many detractors than I am. Careful, your jealousy is showing. Give my regards to your ex-wife.
You made an impassioned and specious argument to defend NBC's clownish move to put ND on an undeserved pedestal. College football is immensely popular and has grown in popularity at a record pace in the last couple of decades. Internet sites like rivals.com that allow people to follow scouting, etc. are one example. If NBC had simply chosen to televise the BEST game each week, they'd have better ratings than they do for showing us the Irish losing every other week. If you think people across the country don't want to see USC (or Florida, or LSU, or Alabama, or Texas, or any other school that actually wins its games) play, then I have to say I think the Dome is blocking your view and skewing your perspective. Maybe some Catholics who don't like football all that much wouldn't watch. But for every Irish fan lost, you'd pick up 5 college football fans who want to watch a good game.
By the way, since you brought up the Harvard vs. USC thing, I was admitted to Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley and U of Chicago, but I chose USC for undergrad on a full academic scholarship. I was offered a half-tuition scholarship to Boalt Hall for law school but chose to stay at USC (with another full-tuition academic scholarship). I couldn't be happier with my decision. Especially on Saturdays in the fall (except this past Saturday -- YIKES!). You ever been to an Ivy league football game? Painful. You ever seen the girls on an Ivy league campus? Simpsons reference: Mr. Burns: "Peter Graves couldn't find 'ugly' at a Radcliffe mixer!" Of course, Mr. Burns, as a Yale man, is a tad biased. Point being, we have "Sundress Day" at USC. A miraculous day in spring when every young woman decides to wear a sundress, making all of us thank our lucky stars that we chose USC.
And the idea that USC is actually competing with UCLA in football is one of the sillier things you said.
At least you still have the funniest nickname on this board. I love that Seinfeld episode. Stop talking about my dad and my girl and you'll be ok. I don't care what you say about me. Rolls off my back. By the way, our colors are cardinal and gold, not scarlet and gold. Just saying.
Art: One more thing. About the "regional" thing.... USC schedules very good teams out of conference. Ohio State this year and last, for example. Before that we played Arkansas in back to back years. The first year was in the Coliseum and we hung 70 points on them. Humiliated, they vowed to get back at us the next year. We went to Arkansas and put 50 on the board before going to two zone running plays in an act of mercy.
And in that game, Arkansas went to its bench late in the game and put in their hometown hero freshman QB, Mitch Mustain. After that game, Mustain and Damian Williams, the team's best receiver (also a freshman) transferred to USC.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Both games were sell-outs (all Coliseum games in the Carroll era sell out) and the country was buzzing about them. Same thing with Ohio State. The ratings for those games are higher than ANY ND game in the Weis era.
The Trojan Family is huge. We have fans and alumni all over the country. When we play Hawaii in our throw-away game next September, you will see a lot of cardinal and gold in Aloha Stadium. Regional my left foot.
Do you ever talk about anything you know about? Tell me something about dollhouse construction.
Wow I got 2 responses to that last one.....I really hit a nerve I guess. Mrs. is even more rabid than you? Hard to believe. You must have to chain her up and keep her away from all keyboards. Let me talk about something I know which proves my point from the above post. Recorded attendance for your home game against WSU was 75,000 and change, hardly a sell-out of the Coliseum. Yet you state that all home games in the Carroll era are sold-out. This is clearly not true. Check your facts counselor, they help you make arguments. ND played WSU 1,000 miles from home, nearly filled the Alamodome and had it nationally broadcast. I don't remember seeing or even hearing about SC-WSU, so I know it wasn't nationally televised. There may be intense interest in these games in your household when you and the Mrs. snuggle up to watch, but I'm saying that because of a host of other reasons, ND's following is national. That's why they are on TV. That's why NBC wants them on TV. Be glad they are such a draw....they've even given an out of work former SC quarterback a steady job. Even ND's away games (not part of the NBC contract) are televised nationally as the Pitt game was on ABC. I guess you'll attribute that to ABC thinking that Pitt was the draw for a national audience. Off the subject, but since you are obviously a hardcore Seinfeld fan (not many people could invoke the name of Kel Varnsen, Vandelay Industries' best employee, with such aplomb) what did you think of the last Curb episode? The Michael Richards vs. Leroy/Farrakhan stuff was pure genius I thought and quite funny.
1. yet another bit of fraudlent propaganda( aka wire fraud for civil rico purposes) from al lesar of the south bend tribune who, unlike his leader eric hansen, actualy claims to be a notre dame graduate.
2. of course,lesar, like hansen has zero knowledge of college football or coaching and zero access to anyone at notre dame who has any decision making power in football matters.
3. however, like hansen and wieneke of the south bend tribune(others at the south bend tribune previously involved have wisely left voluntarily and provided us with documents and testimony), lesar gets very well paid by sources outside of the south bend tribune to write and post fraudulent nd and weis bashing articles.
4. therefore, with zero sources, like so many so called notre dame fan sites, lesar does not hesitate to write and post "Notre Dame football: Time for Irish to make the change with Weis" on behalf of his real undisclosed employers basically ordering notre dame ad jack swarbrick what to do and backing up his article with the usual phony comments which appear to be from notre dame fans, but blocking all comments calling lesar out for the con artists that he really is.
5. of course, lesar's garbage then gets passed on to other media outlets which repeat the same garbage thinkling thast they can hide behind lesar as a source.
6. well, a lot of brokers who continues to shill enron and worlcom stock after they knew or should have known that the books were cooked thought the same way and figured that, if trouble arose, we would never go that far down the food chain.
7. well, as the public records of those cases show, we did not miss even one of those brokers in our civil rico cases and we will not miss hansen, lesar, and wieneke.
8. in the meantime over at the notre dame campus and at und.com, perparations forn the notre dame/uconn game go on as normal and the imminent firing of charlie weis and his staff just never happens.
9. on the usc pete carroll side, things to continue to get even worse.
10. after using every sleazy delaying tactic imaginable, the callifornia court of appeal 4th district, div one, in san diego, finally got fed up with bush's attorneys telling them that the case of lake vs bush was going to be settled and, on 11/16/2009, entered a submission order which basically deprives tyhe bushes of their chance to have an oral argument of the non issues raied by their baseless appeal, and set a date of 2/10/2010 as the deadline for their opinion denying the appael and sending the case back to the san diego superior court for a very expedited and very public jury trial at which reggie and petey and mikey and many othjer people currently and formerly associated with the crooked usc football program will be required to produce documents and testify under oath with taking the fifth, as bernie ebbers of worldcom tried before the us congress, not being a viable option and brazil looking more and more inviting.
11. many people would ask quite reasonably why the lakes and their attorneys do not simply take the very large amounts of hush money offerred by reggie and certain usc boosters.
12. well,there are 2 sets of reasons. the 1st set of reasons stems from the righteous anger of lake and his hard worker banker mother who have known reggie and his family since high school and did not take kindly to the attempts of reggie and the usc mafia to get lake indicted for extortion and tax fraud. lake's mothe5r, who keeps very casreful records as many good bankers do had to appear before a fderal grand jury in san diego to prove that she had loaned to her son everrty cent that he passed on to reggiie and regie's parents in order to give her son another shot a a normal life.
13. the attempted indictment was a complete bust, but the very deep anger persists, no matter how much monet reggie offers those he betrayed.
14. the second set of reasons has to do with the civil rico consequences for lake and his family and attorneys of accepting any hush money and settling out of court.
15. using civil rico language, taking money to keep quiet is known as obstruction of justice while all funds which lake and his family and attorneys collect after a public trial are funds that they can keep without exposing themselves to civil rico liabilities.
16. while notre dame appears to be stuch with another big east game and tech review crew for the notre dame/uconn game with all that we have learned that this means for notre dame, the stanford game may have alternatives to a big east game crew.
17. after viewing crooked pac 10 crews steal wins over notre dame and oregon state for usc, new and honest pac 10 commissioner larry scott, a harvard grad, became so outraged that he made every pac 10 football official personnally accountable to him.
18. although stanford has a fine team of real student athletes, stannford's big wins over oregon and usc would not have been possible unless larry scoot had cleaned the crooked officials out of the pac 10 conference.
19. therefore, we are going to make a sporting proposition to the members of stanford's board of trustees;namely, that the game and tech review officials all be from the pac 10 conference and personally selected, vetted, and supervised by larry scott.
20. we expect that stanford will agree, we are fairly certain that notre dame will also agree.
21. then , we will have a real college football game this season.
GO IRISH!!!
So, let me get this right....ND would be undefeated and ranked #1 in the BCS if not for corrupt officials? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
SOT: You are quite right about USC kicking Weis' Irish all over the field in 2006 and 2007, but what you don't seem to get is that ND was playing more freshman and sophomores (along with some fifth year seniors) in those years than it ever had previously. The reason for that is the incredibly poor job of recruiting by Ty and his staff which left a giant void in Notre Dame's roster. Weis took full advantage of the few in number talented players recruited by Davie and TW to give you guys a heckuva fight in 2005, and he used his own recruits to give S.C. a pretty good battle in South Bend this year. The lame recruiting by Ty is the biggest reason why ND went from 9-3 in 2006 to 3-9 in 2007. Weis was given until this year to see if through recruiting he could rebuild the team and make it prominent again. For Weis, everything depended on this year, and alas, this squad of highly rated recruits that is also now an experienced football team, has not gotten the job done, and that's why after ND gets demolished at Stanford on the 28th, Weis will be gone. He's proven that he cannot develop and motivate players, and that he's not a leader of men. He was promoted beyond his capability, the same as Bob Davie, who was a terrific defensive coordinator, but had no business being anybody's head coach.
And in regards to accusing me of having no guts or intellect because I don't appear on USC boards, I mean, are you kidding me?
Why would I have any interest in doing that? I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in USC football, so why would I waste my time with that? Your entire purpose for being here is to rub our collective noses in it because ND Football has been mostly lousy over the last 20 years or so. Guess what, we all read the papers and we've figured that out. We don't need any trolls living in their mother's basement to remind us of that. If this is how you find joy in life I'll start praying more for you than I already have.
FIGHT ON!!
The won-loss record is not the only measure of success in college sports. It isn't even the most important measure of success in college sports.
I think I understand The University of Notre Dame. I graduated from there in 1966. I have two younger brothers, a son, and a son-in-law who are all graduates. I have two daughters who are St. Mary's graduates. One of my brothers roomed with a team captain. One of my brothers holds four season tickets. Someone in the family as at nearly every home game. Now my oldest grandaughter is applying to Notre Dame. I think I understand The University. I can still remember clearly standing in the cold below the porch on Badin Hall when Ara Parsghian came to campus after the football season was over to make his first pep rally speech.
Ara was replacing Hugh Devore who had been interim coach for one year after the firing of Joe Kuharich.
Charlie is the first head coach the Irish have had since Hugh Devore left in 1963/64 who is an alumnus of The University. Charlie understands Notre Dame and that is important to me. It's very important to the institution.
A few facts for those who may not know. Notre Dame's undergraduate student body is fewer than 8,500 students. Compare that to any other major program. Most are four or five times that size. A recent Forbes Magazine report ranked the top fifteen football programs in the country for their financial contribution to their institution, to the athletic department, and to the surrounding community. Notre Dame ranked first with a $97 million contribution. About $24 million of that went into the University's general funds and another $24 million went into non-football atheletic programs. Texas was second with about $88 Million followed by Ohio State and Michigan, I believe. Notre Dame's atheletic department is the only one among major institutions whose budget is part of the general coffers of The University. Every other program has separated the atheletic department into its own budget.
Some years ago I did business with the endowments of many of the country's leading universities. When the topic of Notre Dame came up, one person after another, Chief Investment Officers of these schools, people who represented institutions such as Texas, Nebraska, Florida, were in awe of what Notre Dame accomplishes on and off the football field. It's where they wanted their sons and daughters to go to college.
Read the comments in this and other related blogs from fans of other schools who have traveled to ND for a football game. Invariably they talk about the Notre Dame community having the nicest people, about being made to feel so welcome, about the magnificence of the campus, about the classiness of the entire weekend. You have to experience it. It can't really be put into words.
So what's the point of all of this in a discussion about whether or not Charlie Weis should be fired? I don't know if Charlie Weis should be fired. I don't have that kind of knowledge and I don't think anyone else commenting here has that kind of knowledge either.
What I do know is that the influence of the head coach goes far beyond the won-loss record. Look at the quality of the recruiting.
According to an ESPN web site, Notre Dame has 31 player currently on NFL rosters. Florida has 32, Florida State has 30, USC has 38, I believe. There's certainly nothing wrong with those numbers.
Look at graduation rates. For the last NCAA reporting year, 2008, Notre Dame is first at 94%, followed by Stamford, Duke, BC, and Northwestern. Florida's graduation rate is 68%, Alabama's is 55%, Texas 50%, OSU 52%, USC 54%. In a conference ranking the touted SEC is last with a 60.5% graduation rate.
Would I like to see more wins? Of course I would, but not at the expense of the quality of the University. Someone else pointed out that ND does it without redshirting (except for medical reasons), without Jr. College Transfers, without 5th year Seniors who haven't graduated already.
I'd much rather wake up on a Sunday morning and read about an ND loss on the football field than see that three student-atheletes were arrested for armed robbery, or that the institution has been fined for tampering with atheletes grades, or that, God forbid, a student athelete has been stabbed to death on campus following a school function.
I don't know who the head coach should be but I know that this institution's football program is the finest in the country regardless of the won-loss record. College atheletics are about a lot of important things. Perfect records aren't even on the list.
1. many cheers for the comments by old alum.
2. notre dame football is unlike football at any other school.
3. playing the game with honesty and integrity and without lowering notre dame's very high academic and character standards will never be lowered just to win football games.
4. every notre dame student, whether they also play football or other sports, will always be a student 1st and an athlete second.
4. at notre dame, every student athlete graduates with one or more real degrees in real academic disciplines.notre dame will never just use the athletic talents of any student athlete and send them out into the world without any real educations, as the football factories regularly do. the graduation success rates are posted at the ncaa website with notre dame always above 90% and the football factories at 60% or less.
5. keeping up those standards while doing his best to win games was the reason why charlie was hired in the 1st place.
6. next season, when the current crooked officiating, rules enforcement, and rankings systems have been replaced by honest high tech systems fully transparent to the public and the football factories and their coaches are gone forever, the world will finally get to see what fine jobs charlie and his staff and notre dame's student athletes have done and why notre dame sticks with charlie.
7. many would say that bringing about such radical changes is impossible. however, we heard the same things about bringing down the enron and mci worldcom con operations with our civil rico lawsuits and the results of those cases, with the exception of many confidential settlements, are matters of public record available to anyone willing to pay the online charges at pacer. com.
8. unlike the proprietors of crooked college sports enterprises, the con artists at enron and mci worldcom were actually highly intelligent and figuring out how they cooked their books through numerous offshore entites was a tough job, one that i did personally.
GO IRISH!!!
Many cheers for the comments by old alum, and robertg.
"SO IT IS WRITTEN...."
Defining Moment?? Warmed over liberalism from the Great Society. Defining, I don't think so friend. See it's folks like yourself that are the real bigots in our society. You're fixated with race. I don't like the Community Organizer because of his outlook, polices and quite frankly his lack of ability. You appear to support him simply because of his race. It certainly can't be because he supports abortion - you stated in your note you're a Catholic.
No, I'm afraid its pass the ammunition and Go UConn!
@Old Alum: Thanks for the reality check and very well said. You are a fine example of what that great school and its tradition have offered the world. We all sometimes lose sight of what college athletics are really all about. Thanks for providing some guidance back to the path.
Art: I haven't seen the Curb episode you referenced. I will look for it online. The Michael Richards comedy club meltdown was bizarre and disheartening to me. I loved the Seinfeld sitcom almost as much as I love my Trojans. And now I can't watch Kramer without thinking of impaling him on a pitchfork.
I will stand corrected on the all-Coliseum-games-are-sellouts thing, for purposes of argument. But I submit that we DO sell out the games. We just don't get 100% of ticket-buyers to ATTEND. This IS Los Angeles, after all. The city that cannot get a pro football team. People find other things to do when it's always 84 degrees, especially if you're playing freaking Washington State.
By the way, have YOU considered that the reason there's such intense interest in ND games is because most people root against the Irish? For every Irish fan, I think there are 3 or 4 people who get sublime joy out of seeing them lose. Schadenfreude in action. Of course, you won't take my word for it on the ratio; I'm not exactly objective. But I AM one of the few Trojan fans (let alone alums) who respects anything at ALL about ND. You people seem to think you're the only school that has classrooms and requires students to take tests, for crying out loud. But I digress.
Oh, and let's not worry about whether I keep HelenOfTroy chained up. D/S lifestyles lose a lot of the intrigue if you chain-and-tell. Enjoy your day. I'll be back hassling you when I get back from my settlement conference.
Avon Domer: You make some good points about ND, but you're wrong about me. I'm not here to rub your noses in anything. If that was the case I wouldn't offer constructive criticism or compliment the people who (like yourself) make cogent points. If you looked at my comments objectively, both on this thread and on the other Keith Arnold threads, you'll see that I give credit where it's due, I pay homage to the Irish's indisputably exemplary history, and I affirm my affection for Lou Holtz.
That I may delight in pointing out the obvious inconsistency displayed in keeping one subpar coach while firing two other subpar coaches is another matter. I cannot help being a devil's advocate, especially where I detect intentional unfairness. I won't say discrimination, because the same thing that happened to Willingham happened to Davie, and nearly the same thing happened to Holtz. But those three coaches DID get the shaft, and I genuinely want the ND President, AD, and powers-that-be to tell all of us WHY. When you fire Weis and bring back Lou, I'll go back to remodeling my mother's basement. Until then, you're stuck pretending that my points are not well-taken.
SOT: Why is it that all other universities in the U.S. may dismiss football coaches and the University of Notre Dame can not?
Has USC ever dismissed a head coach, be it Ted Tollner, Larry Smith, etc. Just curious.
I already explained some of the reasons why TW was dismissed, and Bob Davie had five years and didn't come close to making the Irish relevant. CW is finishing up his five years and he'll be gone because Notre Dame football is still not a factor on the national scene in regards to success on the gridiron. Please answer me this: How long would USC wait to change coaches if it were faced with a team performing similarly to ND under Weis and Davie?
BTW: Do you think it's any kind of a mystery why Ty is on the golf course counting his enormous buyouts from ND and U-Dub and not in coaching? Why do you think Bob Davie is a talking head on college football telecasts and not on the sideline leading a major university's football program?
SOT: In all sincerity, I'm very happy to be wrong about you.
Peace.
WOW, good for you throwing around the word 'BIGOT' like you did, hmmmm,!! How could you even try to understand my political viewpoint by merely what I posted in one paragraph? Though here I am defending myself under circumstances that appear to be a little beyond you and your ideal stereotype... MY BAD and i will not entertain anymore political topics!!! GO IRISH!!
Avon Domer: You asked at least 4 questions.
First, of course ND can dismiss coaches. It just cannot expect that its dismissals will escape scrutiny and discussion. The reason is two-fold.
First, ND holds itself out as (and its fans/alumni live, breathe, and practically chant) being a cut above the so-called "football factories" where everything comes down to W's and L's. If coaching at ND is about something more than W's and L's, then when you fire a coach, it's going to receive attention. And not just because you're on national tv every week. But it's not about something more than W's and L's; both ND and Weis have as much as said so. ND said Willingham did everything right from Sun - Fri but didn't win enough on Sat. Weis said 9-3 isn't good enough. Oh? Then why is Weis still there? 9-3 would be a blessed event compared to 3-9 or 7-5 (6-6?) wouldn't it?
Second, ND violated its own long-established precedent by firing Willingham before his initial contract expired. When you have a precedent and you violate it, people are going to talk about why. Particularly when, as with Willingham, your coach is universally acknowledged as being a class act, a decent man, a humble guy who upholds all the highest standards you want as an institution. It makes you look like hypocrites at best, and as racists at worst.
You next asked, facetiously, if USC has ever fired a coach. God knows we have. We brought in John Robinson, won with him, and fired him when he stopped winning. We hired him back when he promised a "return to glory," and we fired him again when his promise wasn't kept. USC is not a "football factory," but we don't hold our noses in the air, either. We expect our football teams to beat ND, beat the snot out of UCLA, and win all the winnable games on the schedule. Fail to do that, and you're out. And I don't see anything wrong with that.
Third, you asked how long USC would wait if faced with a situation like Davie/Weis. That's a tough one, because of all the moving parts. Weis came down from the pro football heavens, promising to resurrect the program. He inherited Brady Quinn, he got a boatload of money, he had the full-throated backing of the administration, he has a great stadium and glowing facilities, and he recruited five-star and four-star talent (thank you, NBC, for televising every game!) Yet he did not resurrect the program. In fact he humiliated it. 3-9. Not EVER beating the rival. Not EVER beating a top 10 team. Not EVER beating a team that finished with fewer than 4 losses. If I tried to think of a similar scenario for USC, it would have to be something like if Ronnie Lott came in to coach, got handed everything he asked for, got paid much more than anyone dreamed, but got blown out by ND and lost all 5 times he played them, lost 5 times to UCLA, and lost twice to Washington State at home (we don't play a service academy). But he'd never get a chance to go 0-5 against anyone. He'd be gone by the end of the third year, maximum. I don't see how he'd last more than two years, to tell you the truth. We don't have that precedent I referred to earlier of allowing a coach to fulfill his initial contract, and we're not high-and-mighty about what the football coach's job is. (But we DO graduate our players -- many of them get drafted into the NFL as juniors and come back to finish their degree; we have many more players drafted into the NFL [EIGHT from last year's defense alone] than ND does, so the comparison is tough. And we DO prepare them for adult life. USC is a great academic institution. It is highly ranked and has the cream of the crop in terms of SAT scores, National Merit Scholars coming in, Rhodes Scholars coming out, etc.)
Fourth, you asked about Willingham and Davie not coaching. I don't think the reasons are complex. No one wanted Davie, and Willingham is sensitive; he's licking his wounds.
Davie was promoted from a defensive coordinator position; that one rarely becomes a head coach without SUPERLATIVE results at the coordinator level. Davie doesn't have the "it" factor. He's an ND guy, for sure. You can't get 5 minutes of his broadcast of an SC game without hearing him say "Bush Push." Churlish or devoted to ND; where you stand depends on where you sit.
Willingham did well at Stanford. Well enough to get hired by ND. He thought he'd made it. Then the rug got pulled out from under him. He tried to land on his feet at UW. The facilities, talent, and mind-set at UW were NOWHERE close to what he had at ND or even Stanford (even before they built their new stadium). And his team got victimized by some HORRIBLE calls. In the first game of his 0-12 season, the ridiculously bogus celebration call against Jake Lockyer on what should have been the go-ahead touchdown, resulting instead in a missed extra point and the ultimate loss of the game, really stuck with that team all year. My best friend is a UW alum, and he confirms my opinion on this.
And I don't think Willingham ever really let go of the hurt feelings and disappointment he felt about how ND treated him. He's a sensitive, quiet guy. I know the type well. I don't think he wants to coach anymore. More of a "well if that's how you're going to treat me, I'll take my ball and go home" type. And although I'm not that way, I can understand where he's coming from. He's not likely to get another chance at a COMPARABLE program right away. Lou Holtz swallowed hard and took a lesser job when ND stuck it to him. Willingham TRIED to do the same, and didn't succeed. I don't think he's willing to go the equivalent distance below UW to try again. Not until his money runs out, anyhow.
Anyway, Avon, those are my (typically long-winded) views, since you asked in a spirit of good faith. Best of luck to the Irish against UConn, and I wouldn't mind seeing Clausen and Tate abuse the Cardinal defense, between you and me. Cheers.
SOT: The University of Notre Dame is far from being a perfect institution, and anyone who is close to it will tell you that. What the University of Notre Dame is all about is striving for excellence in everything it does, and sometimes it falls short of its goals and expectations, just like all man-made institutions. Football is a very important part of what has made Notre Dame what it is, and through the years the school has taken turns emphasizing and deemphazing the importance of the sport on campus. For instance, it's commonly believed that Frank Leahy resigned due to health reasons as head coach after his wildly successful stint in that position. I've heard from numerous sources that he was actually fired because the football program was overshadowing everything else about the university. Here's another example of Notre Dame going back and forth on the importance of football: Following the disastrous reign of Gerry Faust, Lou Holtz was brought in to lead the program, and lo and behold two Prop 48 kids that were instrumental to ND winning the 1988 national title were admitted. Those two young men were Tony Rice and Chris Zorich. They both graduated from ND and Zorich returned to get his law degree from ND after a stint with the Bears. Unfortunately for Holtz, members of the Board and a group of alums found out about Prop 48s getting in and the practice rightfully disappeared in a hurry, and that made me very happy. I didn't fall in love with the University solely because it used to win in football. For me football brought me there, but the far bigger attraction has always been my being a Catholic, the beauty of the campus and the university's committment to be great at everything it does, and that includes DEMANDING that its student-athletes work hard to earn a precious Notre Dame degree and behave like responsible adults. When I heard about the Prop 48 thing I thought my head would explode. Thank God it was done away with in a big hurry. I know you'll never believe this, but I would forever rather be mediocre at football as the real Notre Dame than be great on the gridiron with lower standards.
Notre Dame wants to win at football and it makes no apologies for that. In regards to the five-year plan for coaches, show me where Notre Dame ever bragged about that or etched it in stone somewhere on campus. I've been there hundereds of times, and I'll be there Saturday. I'll look for it and will let you know if I find it. Notre Dame honored its contract with Willingham by paying him off after his third year review that HE wanted in his contract. Notre Dame gave him a wonderful opportunity and owes him absolutely nothing.
ND treated Willingham the way he should've been treated. Like I said earlier, he spent a lot of time during recruiting periods on the beautiful Notre Dame Warren Golf Course, and along with that, I never saw him coach anybody. Whenever there were time outs you would see a gaggle of ND assistant coaches talking with the quarterback or middle linebacker while TW was always 30 yards away with his arms folded staring at something. Seriously, doesn't Notre Dame, or any school for that matter, deserve a better effort than that? TW is a gentlemen and a fine man, however he is incompetent as a head football coach. Oh yeah...and ND paid him enough $$$ in his buyout that your family and mine could retire for the next five generations. If that's getting treated badly, sign me up!
I'll be there Saturday for the UCONN game with a very heavy heart. CW is on the verge of being fired and it'll be the right thing to do and that saddens me greatly. Weis has given his all in his effort to return ND to prominence and it hasn't worked out. He is a Notre Dame grad who loves the university as much as anybody, and I've learned through friends I have who know him well that he is beyond devastated. I would dearly love to see the team rally behind him and give him a win in his last game at Notre Dame Stadium. My fear is that the team's psyche is shot and it won't happen. The only thing I know for sure is it will make for an interesting and dramatic Saturday afternoon under the Golden Dome.
Peace!
Avon: First off, thanks the time and effort you spent writing all that. I enjoyed reading it.
I have no trouble believing you'd rather have a mediocre but "real" (whatever that means to you) ND than an inauthentic ND with a better football record.
I'm curious what you find so off-putting about Prop 48. You're obviously entitled to your own opinion, as is everyone. I just don't see what's so atrocious. Maybe I don't understand it as well as you do. But I've always thought college is a huge difference-maker in young people's lives, and those without access to a good college education are handicapped for life. A great college (doesn't have to be ND or USC, just any school in the top, say, 50) that reaches down into obscurity to help someone who otherwise wouldn't get there is doing a valuable service, in my view. Particularly where, as with Zorich, the kid who gets the helping hand ends up exceeding everyone's expectations. It's like taking any other risk; some will pan out and some don't. Some might argue that giving scholarships to players who don't play is a waste. But you don't know ahead of time who will shine and who will crack under pressure.
Anyway, I'd be interested to read your views re the abomination inherent in Prop 48.
And as to Ty being aloof on the sidelines, I cannot speculate as to what that meant. Assuming arguendo that you're correct and he wasn't talking with the other coaches, I would give any head coach on the sidelines the benefit of the doubt. I assume he's thinking deeply about the game. He's got the headset on. You don't want to micromanage. That said, I think there are certainly times when the head coach needs to get into a player's face and immediately correct a mistake or boost a downcast player's spirits to "keep his head in the game." Holtz yanking a lineman's face mask while lecturing him comes affectionately to mind.
I didn't know about him golfing during recruiting time. I defer on this point and several others to your greater knowledge. All I know is that it doesn't look to me like ND kept up its end of the bargain. He may have wanted a "review" but that means salary and benefits, conditions of employment, etc., not firing! Particularly when you let the next guy get a big contract extension and keep him more than 3 years without having any better results. Still, you know what I think and I know what you think on this point by now.
What do you think the coaches most often mentioned about being next for the Irish job are thinking now? My sense is that several of them are looking at what a crapshoot it would be to come to ND, and they don't want to risk the security they have established at their present position by coming to ND and getting fired because of unrealistic expectations. Gruden re-upped with ESPN. I think Harbaugh will do the same at Stanford. Not as sure about Kelly but I think he'll do the same at Cincy. Your thoughts?
GO IRISH and Fight on, Trojans! (I know it makes some people's heads explode when I write that...)
Oh, and Avon: Don't waste your time looking for an etched-in-stone pronouncement on campus re: 5 year plan. I never said any such thing. The precedent of allowing a coach to finish his initial contract is an action, not a proclamation. Actions speak louder than words. And it IS a precedent. The chattering class is entitled to note the conspicuous variance from it and, well, chatter about it. Have fun on Saturday. I think the Irish will beat UConn. I say that in part because I don't respect UConn's talent, but mostly because I don't think the kids want Weis to go out losing in his final home game, and the seniors don't want to go out like the last senior class and lose at home, either. Good luck!
SOT: I don't have any problem at all with kids who garner the Prop 48 distinction. I think it's a great idea for a lot of schools and many young people that have had the precious opportunity to earn a college degree because of Prop 48. It just had no business EVER being in effect at Notre Dame. The reason I say that is ND is a very demanding academic institution that for many years has been ranked between 18th & 20th in the nation by U.S. World & News Report. The requirements for admission are difficult to meet and only about one in five qualified applicants are accepted to each freshman class. The competition to be admitted to ND is fierce, and in recent years only Harvard, Yale and Princeton have graduated a higher percentage of their student population. While I'm told the requirements are relaxed to a certain extent in regards to the football team, I have no idea by how much. Regardless, the university admissions staff has to be convinced that student-athletes can and will graduate or they will not be allowed in. I don't know if it's still this way or not, but I heard back in the day that if the admissions office had any reason at all to beleive that an athlete cannot pass freshman calculus, they have no chance of getting in. Believe me, academic demands have cost ND a whole lot of footbal talent though the years, and this is why the Board and many others in the Notre Dame Family were outraged that Prop 48 kids were admitted to play football. That absolutely stepped over the boundaries of what is acceptable at Notre Dame and hopefully it won't happen again.
I know this sounds arrogant to some people and I apologize for that, but that's the way it is at ND, and my hunch is it's the same way at other institutuions of higher learning. Oh, and for the record, I am not a Notre Dame graduate. I am half-Irish, 100% Catholic and was raised 40 miles from ND. I am a proud graduate of a public university in Indiana, and I have revered and been in love with the University of Notre Dame for more than 45 years. The only way possible my loyalty could be lessened is if Notre Dame ever went away from what made it great. It is my fervent wish that ND retains its high academic principles, graduates everybody and always gives those of us who love it something to look up to and admire. As long as Notre Dame remains true to itself it doesn't matter a damn whether the football team wins its next 1,000 games or loses them all, and I totally understand how people would scoff at that, but for many of us it's true. Holtz once said that the Notre Dame spirit is something that if you feel it you can't explain it, and if you don't feel it you could be explained to you. I and millions across the world, many of whom have never once set foot on campus, know what he's talking about and we wouldn't trade how we feel about ND for anything!
In regards as to who our next coach will be, I really have no idea what'll happen. My hope is for a successful COLLEGE coach who understands and appreciates the uniqueness of Notre Dame. You have to "get" Notre Dame to properly sell it to recruits, and Davie and Willingham never came close to mastering that. Holtz didn't go to school at ND, and neither did Parseghian or Devine, but they understood what the school is about and what it represents to people all over the world. I hope our next coach meets that most basic of requirements to take on this enormous responsibility.
All the best, and FIGHT ON!
To interject into the intelligent and meaningful conversation between AvonDomer and StephenofTroy, I am an ND grad and I have a little (very little) insight into the admissions process.
It is my understanding that atheletes are put through the same admissions process as any other student and that the atheletic department has no input into that process.
Of course there are no absolutes about who does or does not get admitted. Last year's freshman class had SAT scores that averaged over 700 (for each portion of the exam) and half the incoming class were in the top 5% of their high school graduating class. As always the objective of the admissions process is to bring in a class with the best talent, ability, and to make sure the student body reflects diversity in geography, race, nationality, religion, etc. I'm expect that there are target quotas for each of those things but I sure don't know what they are. One piece of datum that I do know is that there is a target of 25% legacy in each incoming class and that is accuratly reflected each year.
So just as someone who is a fine musician or actor would gain some advantage from that, so would someone who is a fine athelete but to repeat, the atheletic department, the coaches, the AD have no input into the admission process at ND. I know that to be true. And that's the way it should be.
I am in complete agreement with AvonDomer's comments about Ara and Lou understanding what ND is all about while Davie and Willingham never did. Weis certainly does. BTW I don't think that Devine understood either. I have some personal inside information on that topic but it's irrelevant in this conversation.
oldalum: Thanks so much for your contributions to our discussion. I'm with you 100% in applauding ND for seeing to it that the athletic department has zero say in the admissions process. that would be the tail wagging the dog, and that should never happen at ND. In regards to whether or not Dan Devine totally understood what ND was about, my hunch is he didn't "get it" quite like Ara and Lou did, but he certainly adapted to it enough to win a national title and field many good teams at ND. I think his biggest fault in the eyes of the Notre Dame faithful was that he wasn't Ara, who was wildly successful, handsome, dynamic and was loaded with charisma. Aside from Rockne, Ara was the ideal model for a Notre Dame head coach and was a heckuva tough act to follow. I always thought Devine deserved better than he got from Notre Dame fans and followers. Thanks again for joining the conversation! GO IRISH!
Avon: Thanks for elucidating what you meant about Prop 48. I understand what your point was now. Reasonable minds can differ, but when you understand each other's point of view, you can continue to have productive discussions.
So thanks for writing all of that. Except for the part about freshman calculus. Coming into USC, I thought I was well prepared for an advanced calculus class, having taken an AP calc class in high school. Boy was I wrong! There went any dreams of being StephenTheScientist. Hello, English major, hello law school! Wsy to bring my demons back from the dead, buddy...
Oh, and I second your thanks to oldalum for contributing the detailed information. Much appreciated. Fight IRISH! I mean, GO on! I mean, well, you know what I mean.
SOT: Loved your last post! Your a class act, and congrats on your law degree!
BTW: I thought Harbaugh going for two against you guys late in last week's game was beneath contempt. I know you guys will make him pay, and he's got it coming to him. I'm very disappointed in JH. I thought he was above they type of crap. I'll always respect Pete (whom I met after the 2005 ND/USC game) for not running it up on the Irish like he could've the last two years. Good luck the rest of the season and FIGHT ON!
This is a pretty interesting discussion, SOT, AD= and Oldalum. I thought I would throw in a comment or two:
1.) These head coaching selections are just too fresh. I am still getting over George O'Leary.
2.) I enjoyed SOT's comment's re: SC's program. No way would SC tolerate a coach that didn't beat a top ten team in 5 years. No way. I know we are concerned about the Irish program and continuing the legitimacy of the academics and the like, but we had a big-time football program at one point. Sure, we've been close in some games, but we need to win games. CW's had a fairly light schedule, by historical standards, and still hasn't beaten a top ten program. That LSU game a few years ago was painful. SC has been painful in nearly every year. I'm there. We need a better coach.
3.) I have been a staunch Weis defender, but I think a proven college coach -- someone like Kelly or Meyer or Stoops or Kirk whats-his-name at Iowa -- would be great.
4.) Finally, this is not a personal thing. Charlie has given Notre Dame everything in these last five years. Yet, he hasn't cracked the code. He hasn't figured out how to win big games -- and he has lost quite a few games against historically inferior programs. Let's move ahead and get some great coach to come to South Bend. Certainly, given that NBC televises every home game, the cash should be there.
Teo: Welcome to the conversation!
I really do not believe $$$ will be an issue for Notre Dame in hiring a football coach. We've already seen where Swarbrick said a buyout for CW will not be an issue at all, and that's a great sign. I agree with you totally about Charlie giving his all. He truly has done all he could do, and he dearly loves Notre Dame. That's why I find no joy in this situation at all. When Davie and Ty got the gate, I felt differently. CW is a Domer and that makes this far more disappointing for me. I truly hope that the South Bend faithful treat CW and his family respectfully for as long as they're there
In regards to our next coach, I agree that a successful COLLEGE coach is the way to go. I hope Mr. Swarbrick has already contacted the first two or three choices on his list, and that they are college coaches. We'll see!
GO IRISH, BEAT HUSKIES!
I don't believe robertg is G. Bob. If he is, then he has lost it. I had him for Fed Crim in the 80's. He was sharp and not delusional like robertg. Robertg sounds more like a paranoid meth using, conspiracy theory, black helicopter, Area 51 guy.
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