Comments on: Five things we learned: Notre Dame vs. Navy

By: c4evr

c4evr — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 21:19:05 +0000

To Terryb101. I am not saying CW’s recruits are the reason for poor on field results this either. It could be the switch from 3-4 to 4-3, it could be the switch from Pro style to the spread, it could be global warming. The only point I want to make is that BK and LH stepped into eerily similar circumstances. They both inherited quality players from a less than stellar run under woefully unprepared coaches (GF from high school and CW from the pats). But that’s where the similarities end. Sure Holtz was 5-6 his first year, but he was in every game and lost to for top 10 teams (including eventual champ Penn State). If you leave out Alabama that year, he lost by a TOTAL OF 7 POINTS. Ty Willingham rode the energy of his arrival to an 8-0 start until his team started getting exposed culminating in a humiliating bowl loss to Oregon State. Maybe it’s time to start examining the merits of Independence and the isolation it fosters. Would a conference affiliation significantly alter the recruiting landscape? For all the top 10 classes of Freshmen that come in, there really seems to be a long lag time in development. I see Brey falling in that smae category – and he was mentored by Coach K at Duke. Maybe the argument shouldn’t be whose the better coach, BK or LH… maybe it should be whether ND is playing in 1990 while everyone else is in 2010.

By: usnagrad1988

usnagrad1988 — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:14:04 +0000

I played on the ’84 team that was robbed by the refs when we were beating ND at the Meadowlands by 9 points with a little over 4 minutes left. Revenge is sweet. Now, 3 out of 4 years. ND shouldn’t diss Navy as an automatic win as they have in the past. ND hasn’t been relevent in over a decade and the fans need to start recognizing that a win over Navy is an accomplishment versus bemoaning a loss as so unbelieveable and a cause for firing a coach. I’ll take effort and guts over size and a “give up” attitude any day of the week and am glad our fighting forces are full of the former versus the latter. Good luck with Army… you’re going to need it.
Eric Reinhold
USNA 1988

By: kidmarc

kidmarc — Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:03:00 +0000

“kidmarc …just look at the defense. didnt cw get them in there?…”

First, they are CW’s recruits. Defensively, they were recruited for the 3-4, converted to a 4-3 (DC decision); read problems stem from scheme complexity which was commented that it was bound to happen for this very reason by a Top 10 and NC coach, who thusly suffered the same problem; off-their-blocks is a combination of speed, read, and football intelligence/knowledge Unless you are scoring at least a “B” in all 3 areas these days, you have problems. As far as tackling goes, correcting a problem there can be easily done, but not by 99.99% of the coaches in the shortest period of time because they lack the knowledge… and that includes BK.

Currently, the D has little to no schemes. [vanilla]

On to BK… No he did not turn around Cincinnati. It is on record at UC that the turn around started with BK’s predecessor, who was recruited by another university after 3 years at UC, which means 3 years of recruiting. BK was only there for 3 years, which means he used his predecessor’s recruits those years. The only record of BK’s recruitment and development thereof is at Green Valley State.

BTW, BK met his predecessor this year on the field and lost. He is also 0-2 against another coach he played against when coaching at UC and ND.

Peace

By: kidmarc

kidmarc — Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:53:53 +0000

Good article/post by Mike, “Must Be Nice”. However, I disagree with him on a few things:

The cut vs. chop block

The cut/chop/hack block terminology is regional or preferential terminology having a history several decades old that stems out of the cross-body block. The cross-body block was the conventional term used at the time because of its application and intent. The more aggressive styles/variations (attacking the legs… possible knee) received the current terms.

Double teaming using the technique as the second block is the reason for it being illegal because it is being used to inflict damage. Naming it an illegal chop block is a misnomer; It is the application, not the block itself that is illegal. Reverse the order, and it is no longer illegal, but you could still call it a “chop block” — we pioneered it. [Note: *we* is not referring to ND.]

“Navy doesn’t cut block because their players are smaller. They go after smaller players because they cut block…”

Spin doctoring there. Smaller players resort to “cut blocking” because it is a great equalizer. If you have a disadvantage (size in this case), you find a way to remove it. Taking a defender off of his/her feet is a great way, if not the best way, to do it.

“Only now do we hear complaining out of South Bend. I think we all know why.”

The complaining started a few years back when the blocking, intentional or not, hit the leg from the side or the knee from any direction, as in LB Brian Smith. It just got louder over the years.

Nonetheless, Navy did a fine job. If you can’t stop the “cut blocks” (defend against/negate them), then you can’t stop Navy.

Peace

By: terryb101

terryb101 — Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:51:21 +0000

kidmarc …just look at the defense. didnt cw get them in there? do you think they are good players ?? they are slow, they cant read their keys,they cant get off their blocks,.and they dang sure cant tackle,,did bk turn cincinnati around in his first 8 games ?? or did it take a couple of years ?? no ..your right the cupboard is full of heisman trophy winners…

By: chuckles10

chuckles10 — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:23:11 +0000

Check out video of ND O-line cut blocking. http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2010/10/24/must-be-nice/

Also, didn’t ND drop the Pitt game last year because of a key illegal chop block? If you want to ban legal cut blocks, talk to the NCAA, but drop the attitude that Navy is an outlaw program.

By: chuckles10

chuckles10 — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:21:53 +0000

Those with complaints about legal cut blocking, check out video of ND O-line cut blocking. http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2010/10/24/must-be-nice/

Also, didn’t ND drop the Pitt game last year because of a key illegal chop block? If you want to ban legal cut blocks, talk to the NCAA, but drop the attitude that Navy is an outlaw program.

http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2010/10/24/must-be-nice/

By: kidmarc

kidmarc — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:11:37 +0000

Well… don’t hold your breath. You won’t see smashmouth football from a spread offense, and you generally won’t see it from a prevent defense either.

Peace

By: bigirishfan

bigirishfan — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:10:27 +0000

OMG..we lost to f*cking Navy!!! WTF?

Are players suck, and our coaching is worse.

God must be taking it on the Irish for all of the children that the priests molested.

There is no other explanation.

By: kidmarc

kidmarc — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:40:07 +0000

“..nobody is (at least im not) blaming cw for the results of this year..”

It isn’t about the results of this year. It is about your comment “…poor players cw brought in..”. You are blaming Weis for the current crop of players BK has to work with; as though he left the cupboard bare. Ask yourself this, when BK supposedly turned around Cincinnati’s program, with whose players was this accomplished, his or someone else’s?

Peace

By: Chris Maza

Chris Maza — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 17:15:12 +0000

Notre Dame took a big step backwards against Navy. http://wp.me/p15q0r-2i

By: terryb101

terryb101 — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:55:39 +0000

to c4evr -,,i did say to give bk a couple of years to get his type of players in the system, cw got the type players he wanted,,and yes it will take time.after he gets his players then you (we. us) can judge the results..nobody is (at least im not) blaming cw for the results of this year..

By: terryb101

terryb101 — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:44:07 +0000

tv contract has nothing to do with it.. every conference has a tv contract,,yes nd probably should join a conference but they wont ..the big problem is , they (defense) cant get off the block, they are usually out of position during a play, they are slow, and more importantly they cant tackle,of course tackling has become a lost art. most players just go for the knock down, usually with horrendous results..if i were the d coach i would spend a week(or however long it takes) just teaching these guys how to tackle. dont worry about planning for the next game, it really doesnt matter,cause if you cant tackle then you end up losing anyway..

By: kidmarc

kidmarc — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 15:13:11 +0000

Will you guys stop with the Weis blame game. If “still working with the poor players cw brought in…” has any merit, then no one should expect anything from this team for another 3 years. Weis proved that recruiting could be turned around for ND. Kelly will get his chance soon. In the meantime, Kelly has to take his lumps just like the rest, which includes getting schooled. [4x so far]

Besides, isn’t that his specialty… to do more with less?

For BK: To quote Bruce Willis’ character in ‘Die Hard’, “Welcome to the party, pal!!!”

Peace

By: irishinkc

irishinkc — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 03:20:50 +0000

ND still has a long way to go… sadly so. A couple notes on the Navy squad though:

Pro-

Disciplined
Huge heart
Loves the underdog role “hard work only gives you a chance…”
Plays with major chip on their shoulder
Beats ND at what brought us to prominence – doing more with less! No star recruits just handled a star laden roster, again.
Team full of future Marine officers

Con-

Cut block tactic levels the playing field, and actually tilts competition to their favor. ND was on their heals the whole game in the interior. Even downfield, Navy was cut blocking. NCAA needs to ban the practice.

By: gdomer2419

gdomer2419 — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:40:48 +0000

If I am coaching this game, I would run the ball until it was stopped. Clearly, they could not stop it when we did. Our size up front would have eventually worn them down, you can mix in play action when you run the ball effectively. Maybe I am wrong, but to me it’s that simple. To beat Navy, you have to control the clock like they do and keep them off the field. We could have done that easily. This team has no fight, especially when their backs are against the wall. I am 42 years old. I have been a huge ND fan since I could stand on two feet. This was the first time I have left the house to find something better to do. It was demoralizing. I don’t want to hear that this is the same Navy team that beat the crap out of Mizzou last year. No way we should lose to Navy 3 out of 4 years, much less get spanked. I am not giving up on Kelly, although there are those already out there that probably want him fired. If we start winning, I won’t complain, but his style of play is not ND football. ND football is smashmouth, physical football. That’s what I want to see and haven’t seen it for a long,long time. I would love to see a full house backfield again. That was when ND was truly relevant.

By: guid456

guid456 — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:32:57 +0000

Mighty, Tough, God – Like, (self -proclaimed) The Fighting Irish got destroyed by a undersized service academy. I wonder if NBC is looking for an out on their television contract yet? The fighting Irish what a joke. The only Irish they could beat might be U2, then again maybe not, at least Bono and the boys live up to their hype.

By: ndfootballfan

ndfootballfan — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:04:57 +0000

against Michigan. I don’t know if he has a weak arm or is just afraid to overthrow his recievers.

By: ndirishusn

ndirishusn — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:02:21 +0000

Hey danirish, I knew our defense was going to suck the second I heard Kelly was brining his D coordinator with him. Cincy’s d got blown up several times against crap talent. Kelly bragging about being dead last in time of possession, yeah that is something to be proud of. How’s that workin out for us now! If Kelly doesn’t get a new d coord in the off season then his ass should be out the door at the end of next season. I assure everyone here and now that this team will NOT win more than six this year…and next year! Kelly is in over his head. As for talent on the field, everyone needs to have a reality check. The concensus was that Weis was a great recruiter and a poor developer. So why is it that now everyone is groaning about no talent on the field? And a new scheme has nothing to do with it as far a defense is concerned since most of them were recruited for the 3-4 system. The main problem I see is that this team, like all teams in recent memory has no balls, no heart, and no concept of how to win consistently.

By: jerseyshorendfan1

jerseyshorendfan1 — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:53:56 +0000

You’re right but I believe they are Patriot League in all other sports, like ND is in the Big East for everything else.

By: ndirishusn

ndirishusn — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:47:07 +0000

Navy is an Independent.

By: jerseyshorendfan1

jerseyshorendfan1 — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:45:24 +0000

Most of the posts I’ve read here and elsewhere make the point that we weren’t very well prepared to take on Navy. I think that we had like 5 weeks to prepare for the triple option and we were using Hendrix on the scout team to play the part of Dobbs, the Navy QB. It struck me that Kelly said that Hendrix was doing really well on the scout team and that the ball was just “flying out of his hand.” Does this mean we were over-prepared for a Navy passing attack and didn’t prepare for a fullback to run 200 + yds? Well, if we prepared for a Navy passing attack (which they beat us with on key plays in the last 2 losses) then why did they complete all of their attempts except for the PI call? Something in the preparation for this game broke down somewhere along the line. I just hope BK can figure it out and that this loss doesn’t signal the end to this season like last year’s loss did. Losing a close game to the Middies really stinks, but this complete domination by a clearly inferior team is disturbing to say the least. Oh well, if they take a dive on the remainder of the season I can always go back to thinking that BK stands for Burger King, AA for Alcoholics Anonymous and MMF for mean mother……….well, you get the idea. I wonder if Kelly tried to rally the team by saying you have a choice, some 4-4 teams will be 4-8 and others will be 8-4 at the end of the year. Which do you want to be? I think 6-6 is the most realistic bet at this point and I’m sure, after seeing our secondary up close and personal yesterday, that Utah puts up 50+ against us.

By: ndirishusn

ndirishusn — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:43:37 +0000

You’re a butt head. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. ND has SUCKED for the past 16 years. Blind faith kills.

By: djeg07

djeg07 — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 16:23:29 +0000

hey i think boise state would whoop the shit out of your team. notre dame wont be contender for a long time…whats it been now 20 years?

By: ndfootballfan

ndfootballfan — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:59:13 +0000

I don’t know how anyone who calls themself a “true” fan could have watched this game and been ok with the outcome. Some posters seem to complain that we get too upset when Notre Dame loses to an inferior opponent (Navy). I don’t see how anyone can just get over this loss and say everything will be fine in a few years. Some of you are starting to sound like Cub fans. There is nothing wrong with being upset with this loss and having high expectations for a football program, especially at Notre Dame. Do you think the fans at Texas are okay with them losing 3 games this year? No way. As for Crist, he has definitely not gotten better as the season has progressed. The only ball I’ve seen him throw and actually lead his reciever was to Rudolph

By: danirish

danirish — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:45:53 +0000

Don’t confuse criticism with crying – I read earlier you “Been a fan since ’72, but am about to abandon ship…” Later!
I’m sure Kelly didn’t say “Hey Diaco, you’ve out a few good games out there, we can’t have that! Ignore the fullback, they’ll never use him!”
And I’m sure that Kelly doesn’t say before every game “Hey Crist, throw 6 in a row but always underthrow Floyd on the deep route. But then bounce a few to receivers feet or overthrow in coverage late down the middle!” Yea, I should abandon my team and demand Kelly’s resignation.

HELL NO! GO IRISH!

By: danirish

danirish — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:41:17 +0000

“You knew Marcus Aurelius! Hahahaha!” Maximus – Gladiator

Sorry

By: danirish

danirish — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:40:23 +0000

Your assessment of Crist is right on – I think playing Rees was a good move. Look up Crist to Goodman on youtube.com – he has the gun!

By: c4evr

c4evr — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:34:24 +0000

I’m glad you mentioned #22. To me that sums up the entire ND issue. If you watch closely, Smith was partially blocked whereas he did a little spin move to get out of it. Problem is, when he came out of the spin, he wasn’t ready or looking for any contact. You can see it in his reaction – he was standing straight up and on his heels before trying to recover. That split second playing ‘catch up’ allowed the runner to make the turn. I’d like to say that was the exception and not the norm for everyone not named Teo, but it’s not the case. Same for the O – everybody looks a step behind – make that 3 steps behind if they are playing an SEC team – and a little lost. When your RB’s are running into the backs of their own lineman as the hole is closing, assuming a hole was ever opened, then there are real problems. The ironic thing about Smith is that he’s from Knoxville and was recruited by SEC teams.
My theory, there’s way more pressure to win on these kids today than 30 yrs ago when there was no NBC contract. Sure, 20 yrs ago they had the contract, but it was still so new that nobody felt the pressure – besides they WERE WINNING ALMOST ALL THE TIME. Nowadays, after years of a steady drop off, the pressure is probably unbearable at times. How else can you explain it when kids who couldn’t compete at ND transfer to teams that then come to South Bend and beat the Irish (i.e. Fraser with UConn, kicker and tight end at Stanford).

By: terryb101

terryb101 — Sun, 24 Oct 2010 15:14:39 +0000

bk is still working with the poor players cw brought in,,give him a couple of years to get his type of players in, then judge him,, with that said,, this d is horrible,, they cant tackle, they cant cover, and the officals usually get to the recvr before the d backs do, thats how slow they are, and number 22 is still a pathetic player.. that was a nightmare come true on the td before half with only one player between the ball carrier and the goal line and its number 22..